Sith, I guess.

[mrissa]

"Not drunk at all" was so not drunk enough for that movie.

My rule for "Ranma 1/2" is "do not be the only sober person watching it." This is the Weak Ranma Principle. The Strong Ranma Principle is, "do not watch it sober," and that is my advice to you here. (Please note that I have not been more than mildly tipsy in my life. Sometimes one wishes one had made an exception some hours ago.)

People. It is better not to pretend to explain something at all than to explain it stupidly. It's like everyone had turned into a Vulcan: "I must do this convenient thing. It would be logical." Um, why? No! There is no why! I have whacked you with the stick labeled "logic," and you must concede defeat! Often this stick has a "therefore" on the front of it. "I like cheese. Therefore, we must go see Chewbacca." "Does he have good cheese?" "Um...what?" And asserting that people are good does not make them good, and setting them up in opposition to bad people still does not make them good. You know how the song goes: "nobody's right if everybody's wrong."

Also: why do Sith Lords have apprentices at all? You'd think after about the third one, somebody would have started thinking, "You know...I killed my master...and he killed his master...and kids are a lot of trouble...maybe I should just get a cat."

Also: this is what objectification of women means. Not that some guy can't manage to keep his gaze above my collarbones when he's talking to me. That the only woman character in the whole movie had basically did nothing. That she was the hoard of gold to crouch on, rather than a person with wants, needs, and dare I suggest activities of her own. Even when Leia was put into a metal bikini, she strangled her oppressor with her own chains.

copperwise wrote awhile back about being a golden-haired little girl, about identifying with the golden-haired princess in the fairy tales. I was a golden-haired little girl, too. (This is the source of markgritter's theory that I am an alien, but that's a big digression.) There are pictures of me when I was in the 18-24 month old range, where I'm scrunching my lips up, like a kiss but with great scrunching intensity. My mom said, "We never got why you did that. We'd tell you to smile, and that's what you did." I laughed, because I knew exactly what I was thinking: rosebud lips. Golden-haired little princess had rosebud lips, and I had seen rosebuds compared to roses, and they were scrunchy, all bunched up together. So that's what I did.

I can figure out exactly what changed that, when it went away: I saw "Empire Strikes Back." I don't remember "Empire" -- "Return of the Jedi" is the first movie I remember seeing, period -- but it came out when I was 2, and the golden-haired little princess with the rosebud lips was replaced by a tart-tongued, stubborn princess with a blaster. When my hair turned brown a few years later, it was something of an afterthought. If George Lucas hadn't done that for me, done that to me, and more, I wouldn't have been so bitterly disappointed in these latest movies. But he gave me Leia the politician, Leia shooting her way out of things, Leia getting the last laugh on Han, and then this: nameless girl Jedi shot in the back, and Mopey McPreggerson, Senator of Weepsalot.

Bleh, bleh, bleh. Disappointed? Not any more, no; had stopped expecting much of anything. But my eyes are a little tired from all the rolling.

Comments

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

This was great. Just so.

"...tart-tongued princess with a blaster"--!

She must have gotten all her sizzle from her father.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

"That's not true! That's impossi--" Oh, sorry.

[ckd]

Yeah, because her brother got all the whininess.

"But I wanted to go down to Tachi Staaaaation and pick up some power converters!"

[sienamystic.livejournal.com]

Agreed, heartily (although I was a sturdy tomboy brunette, and identified with a lot of the boys in the stories I was reading).

By the way, don't, whatever you do, go over to the boards at theforce.net - as I posted about a few days ago, their attitude is that Padme's attitude throughout the whole thing is A) expected and B) logical.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I don't think I was usually gender-bound in my identifications, but I also don't have to identify with characters to get into their stories. That seems to be a split among readers.

I am steering very clear of theforce.net. Thanks for the heads-up.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Mopey McPreggerson, Senator of Weepsalot

I loff you. *g* At my showing, we called her Princess Baby Bag.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Can I give birth in a suede minidress and go-go boots? Oh, can I please?

The Emperor Has No Clothes

[mackatlaw.livejournal.com]

That was what I was thinking throughout the movie. It wasn't even the stilted dialogue, rushed plotting or bad characterization that did me in. All of that and more. "Sith" lacked heart, a mythic soul. The original three movies had a fantasy tale done in science-fiction clothing, or a blend of the two, depending on how you want to look at it. Joseph Campbell's heroic journey idea has some problems, but I liked the basic concept: the quest of a hero to find himself/herself, learn a lesson, accomplish some task and return home. Traditional fantasy in general seems to explore more of the mythic and traditionally science-fiction more pure ideas, though that distinction increasingly these days isn't useful. Writers like LeGuin and Zelazny have always blurred those distinctions, but I do think that few well-known writers can bring the countries of fantasy and science-fiction into the same continent. They usually wind up losing the advantages of writing to genre. Lucas did both, had the benefits of the archetypes of fantasy and the clarity of speculative fiction. Back then.

However phrased, the recent three movies lack the magic to me the first ones did, and I think the mythic element, the chill down the back isn't there. Of course I could just be the wrong age, the wrong target audience, too old at thirty for a movie aimed at young adults and the toy and video game market.

The two people I saw the movie with insisted there were female Jedi. No there weren't. There was one female Jedi shown for a second shot from behind, one hologram of one, and maybe some in the dead padawan bodies, but I couldn't tell. No woman got a starring role as a hero. I feel that's exclusive; there weren't any strong female roles in the movie, period. The one female character? Completely responsive and reactive to the others and stereotyped so much she almost wasn't there.

I didn't connect it with objectification until you said it, but it is a species of, marginalization and stereotyping. Good observation; thank you. Say more?

Mack

Re: The Emperor Has No Clothes

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's your age, and I don't think this recent PG-13 movie was aimed at the young adult market. And not just for the gruesome bits, but for the fact that it was talky, and in stupid ways. One of my friends showed the original movie to a 2-year-old he was babysitting, and it held the kid's attention all the way through, because there was almost always something interesting happening onscreen. This was not done that way.

As for saying more about objectification, I really believe that Padme was literally an object in this movie. She never acted. She reacted very occasionally. Mostly, just--nothing. When Anakin delivers the by-now-infamous line about how she's not beautiful because she's in love, she's beautiful because he's in love with her, I think that not only cringe-worthy, but also telling: her value is only in that other people want her around, not in that she does anything at all. If Anakin treated her that way, it would be bad but perhaps a sign of his slide towards the Dark Side; but the whole movie treats her that way, and that's awful.

[mackatlaw.livejournal.com]

"And asserting that people are good does not make them good, and setting them up in opposition to bad people still does not make them good."

I didn't root for anyone in the movie with the possible exception of Obi-Wan. He at least was protecting his protege and trying to be a good servant of the Empire, which he thought served justice. The Jedi Council in general were not good people, which may have been the point that they're just civil servants and United Nations policemen, and fallible. But still: manipulative, planning their own coup, secretive, bad character judgments (asking Anakin to spy and twist his loyalties).
Lot of "fall of the Roman Empire" in there.

Oh, and Yoda was great. Sad that the best or second-best character is CGI. Great voice work.

Mack

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Obi-Wan? The man who was more concerned with his own anguish in losing a "brother" than with treating a fellow being with rudimentary decency? As we've seen -- and Obi-Wan had reason to know -- light saber blows cauterize wounds, so Anakin wasn't going to have the "fast" death of bleeding to death. Obi-Wan literally would not piss on his "brother" if he was on fire. I see why Lucas couldn't have had Obi-Wan put the new Darth Vader out of his misery in terms of the larger plot, obviously, but he utterly failed to motivate the specific behavior. He could have had Anakin drifting away on one of the mechanical platforms and Obi-Wan remembering that he has to help Padme. Then the anguish would have been at least a little believable. This -- no. This gave Obi-Wan no moral (ahem) leg to stand on. And I really wanted to sympathize with him (Ewan MacGregor with a beard, need I say more?), but that made it just impossible. Literally impossible.

During Padme's one bit of snark about liberty, I had Antonio Banderas in my head singing, "The tank and bullet rule as democracy dies!" It's a very sad thing when you start looking at Natalie Portman and thinking, "Antonio Banderas did this role way better." (And now I'm wishing I had the "Evita" soundtrack so I could listen to "The Lady's Got Potential.")

[allochthon.livejournal.com]

Why do Sith Lords have apprentices at all? ...maybe I should just get a cat."

and

Even when Leia was put into a metal bikini, she strangled her oppressor with her own chains.

made me laugh out loud. Thanks.
(I haven't seen Ep3 yet, I'm not sure I dare. But if I do, I'll make sure I'm nice and tipsy first.)

[palinade.livejournal.com]

Mopey McPreggerson, Senator of Weepsalot.

This made me laugh.

I thought a lot of things during the watching of Sith. Much of them were not at all polite. It was better than Ep. 1 and at least there are no cutesywootsie fuzzywuzzies. I admit, I liked seeing a handful of wookies roaring, but they, like the ewoks, didn't evoke fear, respect, or much of any other emotion other than, "Oh look. Lucas did a little fanservice like he did with Boba Fett's dad. Whoo. and the Hoo."

In the other bits of blogosphere/eljayland, others have made note of the whole relationship bits, but you made a good point about Leia. She is the "damsel in distress" but she blows that away when Luke Skywalker arrives at her cell. "Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper?" she asks, and then proceeds to head off for Obi Wan.

All in all, had there been better world building--it is never explained to my satisfaction why the Jedi aren't allowed children or families (and they as distractions doesn't cut it for me since that explanation would leave the Jedi individuals without a sense of unity, and the Jedi are all about unification, am I right?), and why there are always a Sith master and an apprentice. If the Sith apprentices always killed the masters, when would they have the time to be plotting against the Jedi... and why are they plotting against the Jedi anyway? And what makes them so much stronger than Jedi... cos y'know, there are always only TWO Sith Lords and a hellalot of Jedi. Even wee "younglings" (a term I see no justification using).

And so on and so on. Such a disappointment.

Well, enough. Joss is my master now. *smirk*

[timprov.livejournal.com]

Well, enough. Joss is my master now. *smirk*

You might want to revisit "setting them up in opposition to bad people still does not make them good."

[mackatlaw.livejournal.com]

Some of the world building is apparently explained in the extended universe of comics, games and novels. Of course, not having read most of those, I had to depend on a friend who had Googled the answers for a capsule summary. They still don't make all that much sense, but apparently some writers have tried to explain this. Or maybe even Lucas himself did, I don't know, but he sure didn't do it in these last three movies. Maybe he was expecting total immersal by his target audience (younger people) in the extended universe, and so the rest of us are left out?

Mack

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

metaquotes.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[pie-is-good.livejournal.com]

You know, it wouldn't have been so bad if she hadn't been so not a wuss in the first two.

[10littlebullets.livejournal.com]

Here from metaquotes. What upset me most about Padme's characterization in Episode III was not that she was Mopey McPreggerson, but that in Episode I she had a backbone and by III she had frigging lost it altogether. Padme from Episode I would totally have marched off the ship on Mustafar and given Anakin the smackdown of his life, and what do we get in Revenge of the Sith? "Anakin, you're breaking my heart!" Bitch, please.

Despite this, I actually enjoyed RotS a lot, but what bugs me most about the PT is how George has apparently lost his sense of humor. I can think of about two hundred witty one-liners off the top of my head from the OT, but what do we have for teh funneh in the prequels? Jar Jar Binks and "agressive negotiations." Pah. Yes, the RotS story line was incredibly serious, but so was the ESB storyline. ESB gave us "I'd just as soon kiss a Wookiee," and RotS gave us... ummmmm... Artoo with a jet pack. Well, I found that funny anyway, but in a "laughing at you, not with you" way.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yes. I wonder if that isn't the influence of the original trilogy actors, particularly Harrison Ford. I've read articles that suggested that Ford had a strong influence on the dialog of the original. If so, I missed him here.

And it's not even like the jokes were subtle and sophisticated in the original trilogy. I'm not asking for hidden literary references or anything like that. The "kiss a Wookiee"/"I can arrange that!" exchange is silly-funny, but it is funny. This? Meh.

[retrobabble.livejournal.com]

I have whacked you with the stick labeled "logic," and you must concede defeat! Often this stick has a "therefore" on the front of it. "I like cheese. Therefore, we must go see Chewbacca." "Does he have good cheese?" "Um...what?"

*dissolving into helpless giggles* Thank you for that.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

Also visiting from metaquotes, and this line resonated with me as well. My father used to pull that shit; somewhere along the line, he figured out that "logic" was something I valued, but it was never more than a Magic Word to him. All it did was change his standard whine from "Why can't you be normal and do it my way?" to "Why can't you be logical and do it my way?" -- after which, my failure to capitulate was used as "proof" that I was Not Logical. But the "it's logical" argument requires... well, LOGIC... in order to hold water.

[zalena.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything, particularly on the Obi Wan account, it made me feel sick.

As someone who turned dark pretty early, I usually identified with the "ethnic" characters, like Aravis in The Horse & His Boy.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Ethnicity was not a major factor for me in identifying with characters when I chose to do so, any more than gender was. Of course, species was not a major factor: I was as likely to identify with beasts as not.

I am told this is atypical.

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

I so agree with you about Padme, Mris. She was awful. I think somewhere I saw someone call her the "new Jar Jar" and said that every single scene she was in was a waste of film. I agree. Horrible.

You know what's funny? I was at the toy store the other day and you can buy a pregnant Padme action figure in her suite minidress and boots, holding a blaster! When did she ever hold a blaster? She spent the whole movie in elaborate lingerie hanging around doing nothing.

We weren't even drunk, but we did a lot of giggling during the movie anyway. Couldn't help it. Some of it was so dumb. If you see it again, watch the scene where Palpatine is making his speech to the senate and check out the facial expressions on the two weird-looking minions standing next to him. What are they thinking? "Ow, I really have a bad itch on my ass. When is he going to stop talking so I can scratch. What is that smell? Did the emporer cut the cheese?" It's hilarious.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

No kidding! The blaster is entirely absent from the movie. Although a hairbrush would not have made me any happier as an accessory, and brushing her hair is the only thing I can recall her doing besides moping.

I believe those expressions were supposed to be "solemn," and I've seen people make those attempts at solemn faces in real life -- where they're just as hilarious. This is one of those times when realism is not our friend. (Probably the only time in the film....)

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Also: why do Sith Lords have apprentices at all? You'd think after about the third one, somebody would have started thinking, "You know...I killed my master...and he killed his master...and kids are a lot of trouble...maybe I should just get a cat."

Best question ever. Hee!

The treatment of Padmein this episode was a huge flaw of the movie. Did they mean the pregnancy changes a person into an incubator? and the whole "dying of love" thing? Bleah... She had nothing to live for having just had given birth to twins? and losing the once precious to her democracy? And whom Leia remembers as her "real mother" in RoTJ?

Aparently, the was a subplot about Padme organizing the rebellion, but it got cut. Or may be it is a wishful thinking.

Lucas is much more intersted in toys than characters, it seems.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I just assumed, having seen this movie, that Bail Organa's wife dies young, so that the real mother Leia remembers is the one of her young babyhood, not the one who bore her. But that's totally me giving him a continuity pass.

[alecaustin.livejournal.com]

Heh. Weak and Strong Ranma principles. *chuckles*

I saw Episode II for free with the people from the Other Change of Hobbit, and I still paid too much, so I can't say I'm terribly surprised that III is riddled with flaws. Most of the people I've heard from who liked/didn't loathe it seemed to have focused on the action bits and shiny CGI to the exclusion of all else.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Truth to tell, even the shiny CGI bits did not impress me. I think because I'm not good at thinking of CGI as its own thing -- so when General Grievous was all animated and stuff, I kept thinking, "What is he coughing with? He's a plastic and metal skeleton. He has nothing to get sick with!" Or there was an obnoxious hooting CGI lizard, and I didn't think, "What wonderful CGI!", I thought, "Shut up, obnoxious hooting lizard!"

[angeyja.livejournal.com]

I don't think I have the patience to see this one. It's slightly possible I would _rather_ see the dentist.

I am happily consoling myself with books until the Batman movie comes out, and Serenity. (Why do we never run out of good books but we do good movies? Not that I am complaining mind you.)

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I think it's because it takes many, many more professionals to have a good movie than a good book. I mean, for a book, you have the author, the editor, the copy-editor...even if you count the author's writing group, the editorial assistant, etc., it doesn't add up to nearly as many people as are directly involved in a movie.

Also because movies are intended to please more people and end up pleasing nobody quite as well.

[sandwichboy.livejournal.com]

"Also: why do Sith Lords have apprentices at all? You'd think after about the third one, somebody would have started thinking, "You know...I killed my master...and he killed his master...and kids are a lot of trouble...maybe I should just get a cat.""

Actually, THIS one makes a lot of sense. The sith are all about channelled passions, hate, lust, fear, greed...it's what gives them focus and it's what drives them. But as much as they use these emotions to their advantage, they are still heavily controlled by them, and the fear of death can be pretty strong. I think they need an apprentice for a twisted sort of controlled immortality, keep the teachings of the sith alive and all that, as well as it being a subconscious part of their whole fucked up Darwinism philosophy. Sure, they know their apprentice can't really be trusted, but then this isn't a relationship built on trust to begin with. And remember, the Sith lords are pretty much uniformly uber-arrogant, so they're completely certain they've kept their pet enforcer on a short enough leash and beaten them enough to keep them too scared to try anything, even when there's tons of evidence to the contrary. Walking around with blinders on isn't just a Jedi trait.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Walking around with blinders on isn't just a Jedi trait.

Umm...I think there's a trilogy of movies you should see.

Arrogance to the point of stupidity may well be a uniform Sith trait, but arguing that the Jedi haven't been walking around with blinders on for three movies now is going to take some doing.