Types and stereotypes

[mrissa]

I just finished reading Ian McDonald's River of Gods this morning, and I'm wondering about The Indian Mother. Specifically, it's hard for me to tell, since I'm not immersed in that culture, whether Parvati's mother in River of Gods is a common type or a common stereotype. Is it like the "big quiet guy with hidden depths," who pops up all the time among real life Scandosotans? Is it showing up all the freakin' time because that's how people really behave in that culture? Or is it just that the author (and some other authors, too) didn't feel that he had the time or didn't want to take the time to make the character more of an individual?

scottjames has a Jewish grandmother from New York. She's a retired gym teacher. This isn't the only thing that makes me wary of types vs. stereotypes, but it's certainly on the list.

I'm not sure there was room in this novel -- which had something like nine point of view characters to begin with -- to make a plot-motivating spear-carrier into an actual character. But it seems like it's been the mother in that role a lot, and it's got me thinking about how to keep redshirts from falling into stereotypes we'd never tolerate in main characters. Anybody else want to share wisdom with me on this one? I also get frustrated when really minor characters are overdeveloped in order to make a point about diversity in human life and/or relationships, so perhaps there's just no pleasing me.

I enjoyed River of Gods more in the middle than in the beginning or ending, and I'm still frustrated that rysmiel took the time to talk about McDonald books with me and then Forbidden Planet didn't have any but this, which R. hadn't read yet. One might think they didn't run their business with me as the center of the universe or something.

Comments

[dancingwriter.livejournal.com]

I've been wrestling with my secondary and tertiary characters this way, too; I have the same aversion you do to overdeveloping them, nor do I want them to be cardboard types. So far my solution is to give each of them two or three salient characteristics, which each get mentioned once in passing (and not all at the same time) but are not dwelt on. The Best Friend is a lesbian, is going gray, and has ascetic tendancies. The Brother likes weaponry and never sees his children due to a hostile break-up with their mother. The Faithful Assistant is on the plump side and gets tipsy easily. That sort of thing. I'm still having trouble with some of them, though, especially the Apparent Love Interest, who is just pretty, and plays the lute.

Well ... maybe some of that was helpful.... (I'm looking forward to reading what other people have to say!)

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I think I am just easily annoyed, because sometimes the Greying Ascetic Dyke is fine with me, and sometimes I start snapping, "Yes, I know, she likes other chicks and her hair is going gray! Get on with it!" So I think I'm just cranky.

One of my characters in Thermionic Night sees herself in saga terms. In sagas, the tag repetition is deliberate, part of the form, and she decides that if she was living in a saga, hers would be "loyal Orvokki." She's right, too. Well, she's right in part because she decided to be right, but never mind that for now.

I love Orvokki. I don't know how I'm going to manage to write books without her in the future. Only! sensible! character! Sigh.

[dancingwriter.livejournal.com]

*sometimes the Greying Ascetic Dyke is fine with me, and sometimes I start snapping, "Yes, I know, she likes other chicks and her hair is going gray! Get on with it!"*

LOL! Obviously I have a problem without even knowing what the stereotypes are! So should I change her hair color? :-)

Oh, and I love the "saga tags"--everyone should have one!

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Heh. No, the hair color doesn't matter. It could have been "long-haired" or "green-eyed" or "stocky" or "slender" -- if the same tag gets repeated too often, it bugs me. But if it doesn't get associated at all, then the character is a template, and that bugs me, too.

As I said: cranky.

I'm a little scared of what my saga tag would be, actually. Hmmmm. From my early childhood pictures, the adjective that seemed to most clearly apply was "purposeful," but that doesn't sound very saga-ish.

[alecaustin.livejournal.com]

I'm more of the "hint at ways in which the spear-carrier breaks (or might break) the stereotype, but don't develop them more than necessary" school of thought. Unless they're just a name or placeholder, in which case, I let them be just that.

My reasoning is that every book has a primary arc or thematic direction, and while subplots can enrich that, in the end they exist to support the main body of the text.

This is definitely a rule-that-is-meant-to-be-broken in terms of its universal applicability, but it's worked alright for me so far.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the book so I have no idea what the character is like, but does she strongly resemble a stereotypical Jewish mother who's always trying to set her kids up with nice Indian/Jewish boys/girls, and feeding them lots of home-cooked meals, and pushing them into having certain types of upwardly mobile and respectable careers like being doctors or lawyers or engineers?

If so, yes, it's a stereotype (for both Indians and Jews) but yes, I have met a lot of real life Indian and Jewish mothers who do behave exactly like that. In addition to their stereotypical behavior, of course, they may also be retired gym teachers or enjoy breaking the house at Vegas poker tables or write steamy romance novels under a pen name.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

It's a very pushy stereotype, yes, and with much cooking.

[coalescent.livejournal.com]

The one Indian mother I know who's read the book (rparvaaz) didn't flag it as a problem, though she picked up on some linguistic stuff that McDonald got wrong. Make of that what you will. :)