Not There

[mrissa]

There is a lot of talk about being there for people when they need you. This is an important thing. I've had reason to appreciate it on several fronts lately, for whatever value of "lately" you care to specify. But I think sometimes some of us need a reminder -- and by "some of us," mostly I mean "me," although some of you might benefit, too, so it's here and not in my paper journal -- that it can be just as important to not be there for someone when they need you not to be.

If you're going to be close with someone -- especially if you're going to live with them -- I think it's a good idea to know how you each handle crisis. Do you want to talk it out, cry it out, hug it out, in some other way deal with another person about it? Is primate grooming of fleas the order of the day when the other orders of the day have all been sucky? Or are you going off to your cave by yourself to either lick your wounds or just not think about it? I think we're socially encouraged to think of these things as female and male, in that order, and they aren't. I think we're also supposed to think of the "female" version as the caring version, the considerate version, the emotionally attuned version.*

But forcing someone else to deal with their crisis points in your way is pretty damned insensitive, if you ask me. And sure, a certain amount of communication is necessary for some problems -- "arm crushed by mastodon; fling me red meat in passing for blood replacement" -- but for some people in most situations and most people in some situations, going over and over the problem is not going to help anything.

Not very subtly, I'm talking about timprov here. Those of you who have friended him may notice that you don't get posts about how crappy he feels or how frustrating health stuff has been. This is because he is a cave huddler, not a flea picker. Neither is better or worse. It just means that sometimes we have to remind ourselves to behave in ways that help the other person when it's their bad day. Bringing in a bottle of water, speaking in a calm, matter-of-fact voice and/or making a few light jokes when he can't get out of bed, and then leaving him be makes me feel like a callous heel. Sitting in the same room while we both poke our computers and he whimpers in pain makes me feel like a big jerk. But these things are more considerate of what actually makes him feel better or at least not worse than if I was running around fluffing pillows and moaning about where does it hurt this minute, how 'bout now, how 'bout now. (markgritter is also largely a cave huddler. Happily on the markgritter front, this has been substantially less of an issue, as he has no major muscle groups spasming on a regular basis.)

Very few people are cave huddlers or flea pickers all the time. Some pickers will want to just read for awhile, and some huddlers will want someone to pet their hair and sing them songs from time to time. It's okay to switch over from time to time. What's not okay is trying to insist that the other person has to do it your way. "Be comforted! Be comforted in the way I want to comfort you!" No. Not acceptable.

Anyone who has tips for not feeling like a jerk when ignoring large-scale muscle spasms in a loved one should feel free to share them, though.

*I think the "male" version is supposed to be the "functional" version, the version that "gets stuff done." This is also nonsense.

Comments

[lexiphanic.livejournal.com]

This is very true. I personally find sympathy very stressful, as it seems to net out as me needing to make the sympathizer feel better. There are very few people who can get away with overt sympathy without making me actively angry. Now, of course, being angry at them makes me feel bad, hence the stress. I applaud your efforts to do what makes him most comfortable, despite your other inclinations. You can't possibly be a jerk for letting him be himself, especially as I'm willing to bet he asks for you when he needs you, and that you're always there.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I think always would be an overstatement, since I do things without him and, on a very basic level, he has cyclical sleep disorders and won't always be awake at the same times as someone who doesn't. But as often as I can manage, certainly.

[callunav.livejournal.com]

For quite a while, I was spending a lot of time in the company of someone who sometimes gets vicious, inexplicable (no, they're not gas) abdominal cramps. Having spent too long in her youth pretending nothing ever hurt, she now is fairly vocal/demonstrative when things hurt. For the first couple years I was with her, every time she gasped, went pale, clutched furniture, etc., I would witter about her like a worried parakeet. Since she couldn't talk while she was in pain, nothing helped, and she was embarassed about it, this was pretty much the opposite of useful.

I think it was being around other people with her that helped me make the breakthrough to being the right kind of responsive, which was to pause momentarily to make sure that what I thought was going on /was/ going on, and then carry smoothly on, taking the conversation if needed until she could join back in again. I could role-model to other people that wittering was not helpful. This made me feel I was actively doing something helpful - I was helping prevent other people from being unhelpful (with, of course, the best intentions in the world). I was also demonstrating to other people that this was not something to get freaked out about, and therefore reassuring them. Useful me! Pat pat pat. But it /did/ help push me across that line into feeling that, by not drawing attention to her spasms and not making her feel more embarassed about them, I was actively doing something for her that very few other people could do - or at least, that very few people did.

With a more on-going pain....that's hard. Really hard. I mean, I'm the kind of person who can have difficulty just listening to someone venting about an annoying conversation they had without forcibly restraining myself from trying to /fix/ things. Physical pain, that much more so. But I don't know. It comes, I guess. Sometimes, when the bad time is over, I'll have to check in and get reassurance: "Leaving you alone was the right thing to do, right? You didn't mind?" But at least I can wait until afterward.

I think one of the reasons Julian and I get along so well is that we both PROCESS. Reflexively. Almost helplessly. When something goes wrong, we keep coming at it until we're able to talk it through. Quite independently, that's how we tend to do things, so we fit together well. (And when she reads this, if she disagrees, she'll say so, and we can sort it out.) :) That's when the problem is between us. If it's a different process, there's usually a period of cave-huddling. often in the form of stupid computer activities, and than an emergence and the commencement of processing/explaining/comfort-seeking/reality-checking.

She's also really good to me about being okay with the fact that I respond really differently to different events. I always feel apologetic for being inconsistent, but apparently it's okay.

What I have a horrible time tolerating is knowing that someone is upset with me but doesn't want to talk about it. Intellectually, I know that I *have* to give them as much time and space as they need. But I get tied into emotional knots and feel like my license to breathe has been suspended until/unless I'm allowed to talk it through with them and reach some kind of resolution. I used to be a weird kind of bully, and pretty much /force/ people to process with me, because not doing so was so agonizing for me. This is not a good plan.

I'm working on it.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

I have no disagreements, Captain.

(I find your difficulties with tolerating someone being upset with you quite interesting, and, when I'm in the middle of not being able to talk about something, difficult. But it's something I /get/, so I don't feel as if you're... trying to /extract/ something from me.)

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

Leaving people alone can be especially helpful when the symptoms are something they're embarassed about.

Unexplained abdominal cramps can be IBS, but that's not a terribly helpful thing to say as it basically translates to "abdominal/digestive symptoms with no other explanation". Like calling a cold an "upper respiratory infection". Anyway, point is I have IBS (though I rarely get that particular symptom) and some of its other symptoms can be even more embarassing so often ignoring them is the kindest thing people can do for me.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

I should have also said that one implication of this is that I may *want* more flea-picking at times when what's wrong with me is either something that's less embarassing or something that doesn't happen on a regular basis. I think that kind of variation probably makes it even more difficult to respond correctly.

[songwind.livejournal.com]

I have a similar issue when dealing with ladysea. I do largely fit into the stereotypical "male" version of caring - I like to work on the problem, or at least the effects of the problem. When I know there's a problem and 1) can't help and 2) am not even really being used for support/comfort, I get a little crazy.

I just have to remind myself that I'm helping her deal with whatever it is in her own way, and that she doesn't have to do it my way. Being in the dumps because she isn't letting me take care of her is actually about helping ME feel useful, not helping her feel good. :) I think that learning how to do that was one of my important steps in maturing to full adulthood.

[mkille.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. I don't know much about what might help you feel like less of a jerk. I guess I would consider whether there are things you can do or say that make him feel especially appreciated and loved (but don't carry even any implied expectations)--it's not really directly relevant to him feeling physically better, but it can still send the message "I'm not ignoring you and I wish better things for you."

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Of course I do things for him, but what I'm saying is that there are times when the message "I'm not ignoring you" is exactly the wrong one to send.

[mkille.livejournal.com]

I meant "I'm not ignoring you even though I'm not paying attention to you," but that could be the wrong message too, of course.

If you have to ignore it/him entirely, then my only suggestion is that when you feel like a jerk, you could turn to other people (or lj) and say "I'm not a jerk, right?" And the response will be no, you're not a jerk.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I'm at the other end of things (in that I don't get large-scale muscle spasms but I do get migraines), so I can't really give you tips on How To Ignore.

I can tell you that someone (well, Calluna) checking in with me to make sure I'm ok, and then /not bugging me/ is... very nice.

But not helpful to you.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

hm. the thing that i like when i am randomly hurting is for whoever i'm with to ask if i'm okay, and then when i say yes, to just go on with whatever. maybe that might be a thing that would work for both of you?

(example:

b: ow goddamn sorry ass son of a bitch
other person: you okay?
b: yes
op: okay. when we go to the grocery store next, we need to make sure to buy celery because we're out. )

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

i should mention-- usually in such cases, my knee has gone and let me know that i have done something that it wishes that i would just never do again. like stand up. or sit down. or move my foot. or stay in one place for too long. not at all fixable, talking about it at length does not improve things. but checking in is okay.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I will try to remember that this works for you, in case it's ever relevant. Some people find it annoying to be asked if they're okay when they are unable to stand and are having large-scale muscle spasms that are making them moan with pain.

I am even in some sympathy with this position; not so long ago, when I was being rather ill in a rather public place, I looked up at a passerby and croaked, "Get help," and she said, "Omigod, are you okay?" Umm. Let's think about that one, shall we? I mean, I know that it was a socially ingrained response, but I had been hoping to skip that step entirely, as I was having trouble holding on to consciousness and had specifically asked for help. Sometimes the signals of not-okayness ought to be clear.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

ugh. ugh! i can understand how that would be true. i think that i did not understand the depth of his issues, having not met him and all.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yah, I think part of it is probably that and part of it may be that he has a lower tolerance for "are you okay?" as a shorthand for "is your not-okayness in any direction I can help with?" than many people do.

It's sometimes hard to talk about his health issues without feeling like a drama queen. But yah: it sucks.

[marykaykare.livejournal.com]

Oh oh oh do I hear you on this! When Jordin is ill all he wants to do is sleep, and he can do that for 18 hrs/day for 4-5 days on end. When he is awake he wants to be left alone. When I'm sick I want to be fussed over and it's horribly hard to leave him alone. After nearly 17 years (eep!) of living together I'm getting better at it but it's never easy. Sometimes I just have to leave the house and go do something else. And remind myself over and over that this is what he wants.

MKK

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I will have to come back later and reread and think more, because even if I end up with nothing more to say, I think I need to get my head around this.

I just...hmm. A big part of my crisis this fall has been--that I couldn't keep huddling all of the time, and that my sometime co-huddler _would_ _not_ _tell_ me when I was making him nuts, even if I asked (tending to phrase it more along the lines of, "You want some space?"). And eventually that turned into another thing that I couldn't keep doing.

It's just a rotten situation, and I don't know--I keep thinking about it, because I don't _want_ to do what you're talking about, where you keep picking fleas (hee!) when the other person's screaming "STOP GROOMING ME!"

But when dealing with a huddler who--I'm convinced--is huddling too hard to even say, "Yup, huddling now"...drives this picker (I don't think I'm actually exactly a picker, all the time--but I can't tell myself that the fleas don't exist, even if I'm going to acknowledge them and then leave them be) completely up the wall. And makes me feel like whatever's going on is being dumped completely in my lap and I'm being told, "YOU FIX THAT AND REPORT BACK WHEN IT'S DONE."

I'm not sure exactly why I'm commenting this comment? It's not a disagreement with your post. A jumping-off, though. It's a balance I'm trying to figure out.

[secritcrush.livejournal.com]

But when dealing with a huddler who--I'm convinced--is huddling too hard to even say, "Yup, huddling now"

As a super huddler, I think part of the problem is the huddler possibly thinks they have already communicated that they need to huddle when things are like X or they gave you the secret code for "I need alone time" and the flea picker didn't get it.

(The other problem I've personally had is that one of the flea pickers in my life would take communication of "I don't want to talk about this, it makes my stress worse" as a rejection of the flea picker personally. (And no amount of explaining/talking/whatever can convince this person differently.) Which leads to me hiding from the this person (not picking up the phone, responding to emails, etc.) when I need to be in a huddly state because then not only do I have whatever my issue is, there suddenly becomes the issue of dealing with how the person expects me to relate with them and it all becomes JUST TOO MUCH and I end up feeling like I will explode.

Which of course is a horrible solution to this sort of problem (and has in the past led to 90 kabillion people calling me to tell me to call this other person and even more stress and mess than before.)

Sadly, I am still an amateur at this being a person thing.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

As a super huddler, I think part of the problem is the huddler possibly thinks they have already communicated that they need to huddle when things are like X or they gave you the secret code for "I need alone time" and the flea picker didn't get it.

Yeah. Yeah. I am so over the secret codes. *g*

I guess that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out.

My need for a non-sehkrit code runs directly counter to the huddler's need for a sehkrit one. And I'd be able to survive-and-thrive if we could just meet in the middle and say, "Okay, I will say X when I need to pick and you will say Y when you need to huddle." But we don't, and so implosion ensued.

Or in another middle. Or something--anything!--that doesn't make everyone involved completely insane.

Feh. Amateur here, too.

[secritcrush.livejournal.com]

My need for a non-sehkrit code runs directly counter to the huddler's need for a sehkrit one.

*nod* understandable. For me personally, lots of times there is a lot of guilt when I tell people to "go away" straight up. And with my family it's always been very, horribly, annoyingly ineffective and tends to backfire and make a bigger kerfuffle than attempting secret codes ever would. So after a while it's hard to move out of that mode because you've been burned before. (Which has nothing to do with the new flea picker, but it's very hard to break out of patterns which, while not satisfying, tend to produce the least unpleasant results.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

...it's very hard to break out of patterns which, while not satisfying, tend to produce the least unpleasant results...

Heh. Yeah. Tell me about it.

Just for the record, while a flat-out "go away" can sometimes sting my feelings (sometimes not), even this fix-it-now! picker is not wounded by "I want to be alone!"

But, now that I've seen this, you can tell me to go away any time to you like and I promise not to take it personally. (And now I will go away and never speak of this again. *g*)

[alecaustin.livejournal.com]

Ah, the many joys of secret codes. And relationship implosion. That's the kind of excitement most of us could live without.

(Also: Is anyone a professional at being a person? Seriously?)

I guess I'm coming at this from a slightly different perspective, because getting people to go away when I'm feeling huddly has never been much of a problem; I just lock myself in my room, turn off IM, and otherwise explicitly signal that I want to be alone. (The notable exception here is when I'm with my parents, but that's a whole 'nother bag of worms.) I try to be fairly hands-off with the picking, too, so if someone indicates they don't wanna talk about something, I'll follow their lead.

The biggest problem I've run into has always been finding a way to talk about things when I *want* to talk-- not only is there internal resistance to the idea of spilling my guts, even in a metaphorical sense, but there's further anxiety over boring or distressing my audience. I mean, who wants to listen to me bitch and whine about my life when by pretty much any yardstick you can choose, I've been lucky to get where I am?

Feh. This whole trusting and caring for people thing isn't for wimps, that's for sure.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I mean, who wants to listen to me bitch and whine about my life when by pretty much any yardstick you can choose, I've been lucky to get where I am?

Me.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Actually, I wonder if what I was trying to say there was that--if you can trust that the other person will tell you the truth--it might be a useful jerk-feeling-minimizing thing to say, "Is there anything else I can do for you?" Or, "Is there anything else you'd like me to do?"

Restatement of the standing offer, reassurance that you're not being a jerk, and a chance for the huddler to say, "Huddling now!"

Maybe?

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do offer to do things to be helpful to the timprov.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I have no doubt of that at all. :)

[ladysea.livejournal.com]

songwind has always had broncitis. It is a bit scary. For the first few years we were married...I was the hovery, fluttery twit.

I have cut back on that cause he would get rather snarly. =P

Now I watch, listen, make sure he is still breathing, and ask if he needs anything. Or just make sure he knows I am there to help.

It is so hard to see someone you love, miserable and in pain. And I bet our loved ones know that, so if we occasionally delve into twit mode, they understand. =)

Finding the right way to be supportive, was pretty difficult. I still wonder if I am doing it right. =}

[redbird]

cattitude is more of the "let me take care of you" sort, and less willing to be taken care of himself. I used to be more inclined to go hide under the covers if there was emotional stress; now, I'm likely to let him hold me, but fend off the world (phone calls either ignored or very tightly screened, for example).

Hmm. I'm thinking of a friend (who can post herself if she wants) who hates sympathy. It turned out, when we discussed this a bit on a meta level (i.e., when there was no immediate anything to deal with) that she's entirely okay with, say, me offering her a cup of tea, or to carry things so she doesn't have to. What she doesn't want is any form of "there, there" or "poor you" that isn't specifically related to that sort of assistance.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Your friend may be at an extreme, but I think for most people, "You want a glass of water?" in a matter-of-fact tone is much easier to deal with than, "Oh, you poor baby, here, let me get you something."

The most effectively sympathetic stranger I ever encountered was on a plane from Tampa to Minneapolis. markgritter and I had just gotten engaged and were not due to see each other again until Christmas (it was August), and I was sobbing my eyes out, with that chin-in-the-air, I-dare-you-to-look-at-me thing the women in my family do if we have to cry in public, the sad-but-not-broken crying, staring fixedly ahead of me. And the woman who came and sat next to me on the plane looked at me carefully, pulled a tissue out of her purse, and set it on my knee. Then she picked up her book and read. I loved her.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Oh, does this resonate. In a family of six, we have all types. When I am miserable, either physically or psychically, I want to be left alone. If the misery is physical, I appreciate someone checking periodically on whether I need more meds, something to drink, or another pillow, but then they should go away. I do not want my hand held or my back rubbed. I do not want to be touched or talked to. If I need something, give it to me and go away. And as redbird says of her friend, I do not want sympathy. If I know you love me, I know you're sorry I'm miserable; I don't need to hear it, and certainly not more than once.

J is by no means demanding, but he likes some attention and commiseration--some verbal acknowledgment of his misery. He often likes a backrub in situations where I would shudder if anyone touched me.

Of the four kids, three are more like me but not so extreme, and one is like J only way more extreme. So it's quite a spectrum.

When my mother (who had COPD) lived with us, far more difficult that managing her care was remembering to ask frequently how she felt and to express concern and caring verbally, not just in actions. She became quite unhappy if one didn't.

As I've mentioned in my own LJ, J and I reverse many of the expected/typical/stereotypical male/female patterns. If I tell someone about a problem, it's because I think/hope they can help me solve it; when someone tells me a problem, my reaction is to try to help solve it. Just commiserating with others does not come naturally or easily to me, because it isn't something I want for myself.