Cranky appearance morning

[mrissa]

Okay, people. I, too, am concerned with Hollywood's focus on emaciated actresses. I, too, find it alarming that unhealthy body types are being held up as ideal and as the only ideal. (The idea of anything being the only ideal is alarming regardless of what that only ideal would be.) But can we please stop it with the force-feeding comments? If you came upon people admiring extremely large women and someone said to them, "That woman ought to be chained and starved for three weeks for her own good," would you not have an issue with that? If not, you should. Some people do need medical treatment for eating and weight-related problems, but last I heard, "hold her down and force-feed her a sandwich" was not really an accepted treatment for anorexia, bulimia, or any other eating disorder I have ever heard of.

(Why is it always a sandwich? Because lasagna is too messy and you're not sure you can get good naan for force-feeding bites of curry in that neighborhood? Because ice cream melts and you're not sure you'll be able to make it backstage in time? Why sandwiches?)

I am disturbed by people who cannot distinguish between thinness and anorexia.

I am also disturbed by people who assume that everyone really, truly, deep-down appreciates the dominant social notions of beauty and only endures involvement with mortals of different shape, style, and hue because of resignation to one's fate or some kind of noble high-mindedness. Sure, I prefer geeks for conversation and non-sexual interaction, but I am also allowed to enjoy the geekotypes we commonly see around us on an aesthetic basis! It's not charity, dammit! I do not put up with the scruffy beard in order to get at the book collection! I'm allowed to like both! ("Scruffy beard" is a stand-in for all sorts of traits and geekotypes, some of which are beardless. Still.)

Comments

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

Thank you.

[anne-mommy.livejournal.com]

Amen, Sister! I like the scruffy beard!

As far as the force-feeding goes, I've been known to occasionally comment that someone could use a sandwich, but never that they should be force fed one. Regardless of food used, force feeding in general sounds messy and unpleasant. :-)

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yes. "Eat a sandwich," is a very, very different thing to say than, "Hold that girl down and force-feed her a sandwich!" Some people in the comments sections on my friendslist are saying the first one, and that's a lot less of a problem for me.

[copperwise.livejournal.com]

OK, you're right. It's not nice. I'm not sure that a lot of them have true eating disorders, though they're on their way. Especially the ones who bounce from buff and busty for a role back to emaciated as their standard look. Self-esteem issues in that they can't be who they are without out-skinnying the next girl, definitely.

I do react to them with the feeling of wanting to feed them though. Much like I do to pics of starving kids in Ethiopia. Only with the starving kids there isn't the exasperation factor of knowing they've done it to themselves on purpose. As I mentioned, it's not difficult to tell when someone is naturally thin -- they're proportionate. They also don't bounce back and forth all the time. There are delicate and petite Hollywood women who don't inspire me to aggravation.

However, I've been flat out told that I should try to contract anorexia, and there have been an enormous amount of similar jokes about Liz Taylor and other stars who have put on weight. So it does happen the other direction.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yes, it does happen in the other direction, and it's wrong then. But I don't know a single person on my friendslist who doesn't think it's wrong then, and I know several people who think nothing of advocating forced intervention with thin women.

As I said to anne_mommy, I think there's an enormous difference between "she should eat a sandwich" and "tie her down and force-feed her a sandwich."

[copperwise.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. Suggesting anyone be force fed is wrong. I think the solution, unlikely though it be, is to stop praising them when they are naturally a size 8 and they get down to a size 0. You are thin and beautiful because your body is naturally that way. Latifah has settled at a healthy weight for her, but she's never going to be a size 0 and I hope she never gets caught up in trying. She's gorgeous the way she is. We all are, dammit, and we have to stop trying to make everyone be the same size unnaturally, whether by forcing them to eat or forcing them to starve.

[spaceoperadiva.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I thought of sufragettes on hunger strikes too. I'm sure if we thought about it, there's a societal message behind the super skinny celebrities. Not that I think they're consciously promoting a message beyond "look at me, I can be the ideal no matter how ridiculou that ideal is!"

[coraa.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

As a woman who is, by nature and without dieting, rather thin, I am always disturbed by force-feeding type comments, and dismayed by 'eew, ugly chicken-legged famine freak' comments. 'Women are ugly monsters unless they have curves' is not that much different than 'women are ugly monsters unless they're sticks;' in both cases it privileges one beauty-ideal over all others and demonizes women for their appearances.

I'm sure some of the actresses do have eating disorders. I'm sure some of them don't. I'm also sure that none of them deserve to be deemed 'freaks' based purely on the shapes of their bodies.

[copperwise.livejournal.com]

What they deserve is to be encouraged to let their bodies be whatever size they seem to settle at naturally, be it large or small. What they don't deserve is to be lauded for whittling themselves down to skeletal and endangering their health. Women are beautiful in all shapes and sizes and it pisses me off as much when my thin friends get crap for it as it does when I get crap for not being thin. It disturbs me that in Hollywood, resembling a famine victim is a valid choice that is glamorized.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yes. As I said, the glamorization of one unhealthy body type concerns me.

I also think that our culture is set up so that almost no one is getting good food and moderate exercise to know what size their body naturally "should" be. But I know women who are getting balanced, wholesome food and moderate exercise at a wide range of sizes, so I don't assume that it would naturally trend a particular direction from here.

[copperwise.livejournal.com]

But I know women who are getting balanced, wholesome food and moderate exercise at a wide range of sizes, so I don't assume that it would naturally trend a particular direction from here.

Only if we start saying "hey, she looks really healthy and happy" as a compliment. Again I think Latifah is a good example; she does look healthy and comfortable with herself and happy and lovely. So does Kate Hudson, who has always been naturally very slender.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yes.

Also, I think people deserve a good deal more credit for dressing the body they have in a flattering way than for the body itself, in most cases. Judi Dench, for example, is not peddling gorgeous ass, but she generally seems to pick clothing that is flattering to her size/shape/coloration. Some people say, "so-and-so would look great if she wore a brown paper bag," but things like Hollywood awards nights prove how false that statement is!

One of the hallmarks of the unhappy body is the unhappy boobs. If you are too skinny for your natural weight's set point -- and trust me, I know this experimentally -- the boobs just start getting weird. Women's breasts vary a good deal, but you can see the difference on yourself between "normal breasts for me at age X" and "funny-shaped glandish things without enough weight per unit gland at age X," if you're honest with yourself. Having experienced this myself after I was sick, I've spotted it on a couple of starlets, and there was really very little their dresses could do to hide it. It was sad. Tits are supposed to be a good thing at whatever size/shape you naturally get them!

[carbonel]

Well, my body doesn't seem to want to settle naturally at any one weight, but to keep getting larger and larger. So I did something to whittle myself down, though not to skeletal, nor to endangering my health. And I take pleasure in being lauded for it, even though I know I still have weird personal body issues and have to keep telling myself, that no, I'm really not fat. Really.

[copperwise.livejournal.com]

And good for you! There is nothing wrong with doing what you need to in order to be healthy. Major difference between managing one's weight, and starving down to emaciation to fit into a Valentino and get your pic on the cover of magazines.

Your average height/weight proportionate healthy woman looks obese next to some of the Hollywood women; we can't let them be our standard.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Some of them deserve to be deemed "freaks" based purely on the contents of their personalities, but that's another problem....

[coraa.livejournal.com]

Oh, indeed.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

The one that bothers me in that direction, and that I've seen quite a few times is, "real women have curves". Well, some do, but I don't think that implying that *only* curvy women are real is a particularly helpful way to attack the prevailing skinny ideal.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, exactly. As a women with a slim build and smallish breasts, I always bristle at the implication that I am somehow an incomplete woman -- that my female-ness is based on my shape.

One of the things that's been percolating for me is this: after the Academy Awards, or similar celebrity-show-off events, I frequently hear 'that woman looks like a starved chihuahua,' or 'tie her down and feed her something.' I agree that many of them are probably pushed to unhealthy degrees to slim down, and that encouraging that isn't good. However, why do we hear implication that the woman is hideous or crazy, and rarely do we hear about the people (often sitting right next to them, sleek in tuxedos) who make the casting choices that result in all starlets being skinny? The woman may be a poor role model or making poor choices, but she's not the only culpable one.. and yet she's frequently the target of the most vitriol. Which seems skewed, somehow.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

i heart scruffy beards. heart heart heart.

ahem.

if a person is very skinny, and i know that they are working to remain that way/get skinnier, then i worry about them being unhealthy, anorexic, otherwise eating disordered, etcetera.

if a person is very skinny and that seems to be the way they are, then i worry about them until i figure out that that is the way they are and then i stop.

if a person is very skinny and they wish they weren't, then i look for good chances to feed them food that they like. pizza and cheesecake and other such nutritive high calorie things. milkshakes!

currently, my grandmother is sort of in that third group (she is not complaining, but she is 92 and we wish she wouldn't be so skinny), you are in that second group, and, uh, a few people i know and also all of hollywood are in that first one.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I know the Elderly Relative Feeding Problem, yes. Milkshakes are our friends!

I have been in the third category for a few months, after I was sick a few years back. Noticeably skinnier than now, not deliberately. It was no fun. Part of why it was no fun is that I had a substantial number of people on the "any weight gain is bad even if you are now of concern to your doctor" team and a substantial number of people on the "weight gain is really easy for me so it should be really easy for you so shut up" team. Bleh.

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

5'2"? Which movies have you been watching? ;-) Did you mean 5'10"?

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

There are a bunch of popular female actors who are 5'10," but many are considerably shorter. Reese Witherspoon (last night's best actress award) is 5'2". Best supporting actress Rachel Weisz is 5'7"; nominees--Judi Dench 5'3", Felicity Huffman 5'5", Keira Knightley 5'7", Charlize Theron 5'9", Amy Adams 5'5", Catherine Keener 5'9", Frances McDormand 5'6", Michelle Williams 5'4".

Also 5'2": Holly Hunter, Sally Field, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Laura San Giacomo, Rachel Leigh Cook, Gillian Anderson. (Even shorter: Bette Midler, Carrie Fisher, Debbie Reynolds, Janeane Garofalo.)

5'3": Martina Sirtis, Natalie Portman, Melissa Joan Hart, Sarah Michelle Geller, Bo Derek.

5'4": Britney Spears, Sarah Jessica Parker, Madonna, Lucy Liu, Drew Barrymore.

5'5": Renee Zellweger, Demi Moore, Jennifer Lopez, COurtney Cox, Christina Applegate, Yasmine Bleeth, Pamela Anderson.

I'll skip the intervening ones; clustered at 5'10" are Kathleen Turner, Liv Tyler, Sigourney Weaver, Wendy Malick, Camryn Manheim, Gwyneth Paltrow, Darryl Hannah, Laura Dern, Minnie Driver, Jenna Elfman. The only well-known female actors I could find who are taller than that are Lucy Lawless and Brooke Shields.

Go back a generation, or two, and the actresses were even shorter on average.

[cpolk.livejournal.com]

totally trivial - how tal is nicole kidman?

because I see her in long shots sometimes and I think WOW she has got to be so tall.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Sadly, lots of kids do go into college thinking that "doctor" and "lawyer" are their main choices if they're smart. Our society is really, really bad at occupation exposure for kids.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

This year, my company is replacing "Take Our Sons and Daughters to Work Day" with a family open house. On a Saturday, when no work will be going on, none of our cool machines will be doing anything, and the kids won't get to see any people doing their jobs.

The excuse is that schools have requested not to have the kids miss a school day.

I can't help but think that the company has seriously misunderstood the point, for kids to see what jobs actually look like (and, since it was founded by Ms., to see the range of jobs owmen hold). And that the schools have seriously misunderstood life in general, in thinking that school is the only place where kids can learn important lessons.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Oh heck yah. Heaven forbid we should miss a day of THE CURRICULUM. Because THE CURRICULUM has been scientifically determined to be the best thing for every single child, and is optimally executed, and any deviation from THE CURRICULUM is BAD.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

Plus, you might missing learning something on THE TEST, the only goal of all knowledge.

[angeyja.livejournal.com]

I'll second that. That's based on Ben of course. I sort of wish for the idea of some sort of internships too given the amount of differece between learning, learning about and doing.

And the next rung down too. If you cannot make it into the pre-whatever programs take business. I may be out of date on that. That was my day.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

As the large-size mom of a naturally very thin daughter and a fairly average (not Hollywood average, real average) one, I agree.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

They're developing mini-crossbows for some applications with walruses. Surely supermodel physiology can't be sufficiently different as to rule those out.

[spaceoperadiva.livejournal.com]

I am also disturbed by people who assume that everyone really, truly, deep-down appreciates the dominant social notions of beauty and only endures involvement with mortals of different shape, style, and hue because of resignation to one's fate or some kind of noble high-mindedness.

I have this problem with someone I love very much, who recently said "I am astounded that you want to be with me!", as if I can only like huge blonde muscle guys just because I deeply love one particular blonde muscle guy. People can be equally and differently attractive, at least to me.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yah. Even people who have a pretty clear type (not that I know anyone like that, she said, and oh look, isn't that the Winged Victory of Samothrace?) can find themselves deeply appreciating people who don't fit that type at all. People vary. It's a good thing.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

If I lined up all the guys I've ever been attracted to, I don't think there's one single thing they would have in common. Not height, not body type, not hair color (or hair at all), not eye color, not race or ethnicity. And even if I lined up all the ones I've actually been "involved" with, the only commonality is that they've all been white, which has all to do with my environment and nothing to do with attraction.

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

If I lined up everyone I'd ever been attracted to, the conversations would be fascinating.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I had a weird moment awhile back when I realized that most of the guys I've been attracted to have been of mid-to-northern European or East Asian ancestry (or both). Then I thought about guys I've known even slightly well, and the pool of possibilities suddenly made the actual results make a lot more sense.

[jmeadows.livejournal.com]

Yes. Thank you.

[laurel]

Word.

I thank you (as someone who used to receive comments from friends, family, and strangers along the lines of "eat a cookie" or "eat a sandwich").

It really does seem one of the last areas where it's okay in many circles to be openly rude or mean without anyone calling you on it.

[mattgritter.livejournal.com]

Yeah!!! I'm thin, not for lack of trying not to be though. And I have a scruffy beard too, that I have a bit more control over though. Oh well. What do you expect from a Sem Student. I'm supposed to be thin and scruffy looking!

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

And wild-eyed. Don't forget wild-eyed.

[mkille.livejournal.com]

And the camel-hair shirt and leather belt.

here by way of yhlee

[shati.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying this -- both your concern with Hollywood's singular ideal, and your concern with the forcefeeding comments.

Re: here by way of yhlee

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

You are quite welcome.

[cpolk.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

It seems to me that i thanked you for this once already, a long while ago - was it at oscars then too?

I get so annoyed at hearing about how I'm unhealthily thin. I usually get mad and say "you know what? I weigh 135 pounds. you were thinking something about twenny pounds lighter than that, weren't you? well, you're wrong. gimme that #$^(&#$^ cheesecake."

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I think it was some other appearance-related topic rather than Oscars.

And yah, I don't have to be force-fed to get cheesecake in me, thanks.

Each to his/her own

[joelrosenberg.livejournal.com]

I think I've heard the same words a few times, and I've always processed it as, "Gee, I think she isn't merely very thin, but unhealthily so", which in at least some of the cases I think is pretty clearly true. (I'm not sure it's true about all of those who look that way; what's "normal" varies dramatically from person to person -- and I'm pretty sure I can't always reliably distinguish between thinness and marginally-visible anorexia.)

If I was tempted to take it literally, I'd get irritated, too.

Why sandwiches? Because they can be a good (not great, but good) way to get a bunch of nutrition in, and can be quickly handed off in many circumstances -- much more difficult to usefully toss somebody a nice bowl of fettucine alfredo, all in all.

Re: Each to his/her own

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

It's not that I actually believe these people are going to stalk actresses and force-feed them. But I think the form of our rhetoric is important, and the choice of a few words can make the difference between irritating (or worse) and reasonable.

Re: Each to his/her own

[joelrosenberg.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm neither particularly defending the rhetoric nor accusing you of thinking that the folks who would use it would actually do it -- I'm just reporting how I would process that particular text/figure of speech/whatever. (And noting that what I label that language as makes a big difference.)

For me, it's kind of like, "I'd kill for a martini," which I would (generally) interpret to mean "I'd really like a martini", rather than either literally, or even "I'm fantasizing committing homicide in return for chilled gin with a little vermouth and an olive, rather than fantasizing going into a bar and giving a bartender a small amount of money for the same beverage."

Is rhetoric important? I dunno; for me, it depends on the situation, the context, and how it's interpreted.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, after all. :)