Request and poll aftermath (cute)

[mrissa]

First, I'm going to copy a request from a friend who is a librarian. This person has a patron who wants books (preferably good ones) with the following characteristics:

--female main character who is older and single
--absolutely no love interests, romance or sex
--no swearing, graphic violence, etc.

I have very little sympathy with the person making this request -- it seems to bar a great deal of the human condition from art -- but a good deal of sympathy for the person doing a hard job trying to help her. So. Chime in if you have any ideas.

As regards yesterday's poll: eight minutes. Eight. Those few of you who bet on my continuing sanity on this subject: thanks, but, um, that's not something you should rely on particularly much.

And there's a comment I made in the comments section that probably deserves a moment of explication: orbitalmechanic told me I was cute, and I tried my standard, by now thoroughly failed response to that: "I'm not cute, I used to be a physicist." It was, as I noted, much pithier when it was a growled, "I'm not cute, I'm a physicist." It was no more effective but a great deal more important to me.

See..."cute" is not the same as "pretty" or "attractive" or "hot," or, on the other side of the cute spectrum, "charming" or "fun." None of those other words has quite the same ring to it. And when you're a young, female physicist, often "you're so cute," means something friendly and innocuous...but a substantial percentage of the time, it means, "I don't believe you can handle the math and/or the soldering." People who think you're cute aren't always dismissing you and your capacity to do the work -- but sometimes they are. Often enough to be disturbing. So I developed a knee-jerk reaction to "cute" pretty fast -- more or less upon first contact. (Which was college. Nobody in high school thought I was cute anywhere along the pretty-to-charming spectrum. I promise. I was terrifying, not cute. I got used to that.) (Now I can be both! Yay, adult world!) (Ahem. Sorry.)

And I use "cute" myself sometimes, and never to question someone's competence. I use it of big hulking males whose ability to do linear algebra I have never doubted. In fact, in the personality side of things, the "charming" side, the man who taught my Modern, Math Methods, Quantum, and Nuke courses was just so cute. He had these Inspector Gadget arms, and when he demonstrated rotation over 4Pi with his coffee cup, it was just the cutest thing. I still smile at the cute thinking of Tom doing that. This is not the "ooh baby baby" cute, this is the "awwww" cute. But it's "awww, the way he does physics is so cute," not "awww, he thinks he can do physics!"

Tom wasn't a young woman, he was a middle-aged guy. If someone told him he was cute, they were not going to attempt to take lab implements away from him on his own project and smile condescendingly if he explained how they were using them wrong. No one was going to corner him to try to cop a feel when they were supposed to be discussing results of the last data set if he was cute. No one's girlfriend was going to have to hear a careful explanation about how, no, really, she's a valuable lab partner and not just cute lab decor.

And deliberately attempting to be neither pretty nor charming nor any of the other things cute sometimes means did not seem like the way to go either. So: railing against the cute. Even when I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt -- as I know with orbitalmechanic -- that there was nothing of the sort in it.

And the thing is, I don't live there any more. I am not Marissa Lingen, Girl Physicist, on a daily basis (though she still pokes her nose out sometimes). Most editors and agents have no idea whether I am cute in any sense of the word, and if they do, it's not a big deal, either way. Either way, they're not going to pick up a story of mine and say, "Oh, she's cute/not cute," and reject the story unread. Whatever gender problems the field may or may not have -- and we can argue about that somewhere else and at another time, please -- cuteness is not at the center of them. If I hear someone calling me cute for a particular comment or behavior, or telling me I look cute in whatever I'm wearing, there is not even the slightest hint of "too bad you can't plot your way out of a paper bag," in it. Nobody even has to fight that implication, because as far as I can tell, it's just not there.

So, the knee: I need to get it to stop jerking. I know that. But that's why it does.

Comments

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

Mostly I don't mind being called cute or whatever. I am often told I look younger than I am. And mostly that's a good thing. But the other side of the coin is you get condescension. For example, I worked a funeral at church last week, and there was an older lady working also. There was a certain part of the service that I hadn't done and still needed walking through. This lady proceeded to patronize me through the entire thing, even when I told her that I already had experience turning the lights on and off in the church, and could handle it on my own, thanks.

The last straw was afterward, when I was washing the dishes. She actually took a dish out of my hand because she was impatient with how carefully I was rinsing it. (Excuse me, folks, residual soap suds in the Blood of Christ--NOT a good thing.) She wanted to show me how to stack the dishes to drain on a towel. Who needs to be shown how to do that? Kindergarteners? She never actually called me "cute", but I suspect this has to do with me looking younger than my 34 years. Every single other person who works in that ministry is older than dirt, so there's probably some age-dilation in there, too. As in, "So you're 34. Do you know how to wash dishes yet, young lady?"

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I know those church ladies in some detail, yes.

[nycshelly.livejournal.com]

As a librarian, I get this sort of thing a lot. There are a lot of people, expecially very religious and/or elderly people who simply don't want to be exposed to certain words or to violence of any sort. And it's becoming increasingly difficult to find books they like. And while, yes, they cut themselves off from much of the human condition, as you say, I have a lot of sympathy for them. The world changed and they got left out. And there's certainly nothing wrong or unsympathetic in wanting to read things you're sure you'd like, or most likely to enjoy because there are so many books out there and not nearly enough time to read 'em.

I cut off short stories because I prefer novels and want to read as many of those as I can. And I don't like reading about elves and fairies, unless in an urban setting. We all have our preferences, wider or more restrictive than others. It's a shame, that with such a variety of books, there isn't enough to accommodate the people who have more limited tastes.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Well, what do you tell them? If this is a familiar question? Or are you saying there just isn't stuff to tell them?

I think part of the problem is that those of us who don't have the same limitations are not thinking of books that way. I can't tell you whether most of the books I've read recently contained the word "damn," for example. I feel sure that someone with this set of sensibilities would notice it strongly, but I just don't, and that makes it much harder to pick out what might lack it.

[sam-t.livejournal.com]

I can see that one might want such books occasionally - in the aftermath of a particularly difficult breakup, for instance, especially if one already dislikes strong language - or might want to find out whether such works exist, but I'm a bit perplexed by it as a general reading strategy.

No love interests/romance ever, or just for the main character? Are peripheral characters allowed to be married, for instance?

Will ponder.

[sam-t.livejournal.com]

I've got a possible: the 'Miss Read' (http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/026-3213697-6238803?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=miss+read) Fairacre books. The main character is the middle-aged headmistress of an English village primary school, and they're basically about how she fits in to village and school life. A character may get married occasionally; the main character has a friend who keeps trying to matchmake; I can't say definitely that there will definitely be no bad language and violence, but if there is it will almost certainly be a small child who then gets told off for it. There is rural poverty and people do not always treat each other well, but it's not exactly gritty, and it's always told very gently and with humour.

Could be difficult to get hold of in the U.S., though.

[sam-t.livejournal.com]

Oh, and also: set somewhere pre-1970s, I think.

[timprov.livejournal.com]

If she's willing to read YA, there's Richard Peck's A Long Way from Chicago and A Year Down Yonder, which I think qualify.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Depending on what one means by graphic violence, there's always the Miss Marple mysteries. Definitely an older woman with no love interests, but there are these murders that keep cropping up, so, dunno.

[guipago.livejournal.com]

I have a similar reaction to cute.

Oh you're so Cute! Hey You're cute!

my response? Yeah, I'm cute, but I can also grow some bacteria that will invade your body and kill you if I so desire. Am I still cute now?

*rolls eyes*

Cute seems to be the fall back position of someone who attempts to placate you no matter what. I don't like being called cute. Doing something cute is a whole different story.

:)

[spiralflames.livejournal.com]

i hear ya on the 'cute'. it bugs me. to me,'bright' has the same deal. not intelligent,brilliant, insightful. 'bright'. the words left out of both? "young girl"

[retrobabble.livejournal.com]

Yah on the cute. *grr* It doesn't happen so much now but I suspect the construction field is a darn lot like the physics field. Being called cute in this industry is like patting me on the head and asking if I'd done any shopping lately. I had to resort to nastiness (No, I didn't make a mistake. Try installing the panel the right way) or the typical male jockeying for position strategy (Back when I was working on installing tile in the bathroom, I used to do it this way) to assert that I do know what I'm doing.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Heh, and I come at it from the other angle. No one everrr doubted my competence, but no one ever thought I was cute, either.

I lap it up.

[gjules.livejournal.com]

It isn't fiction, but Ednah Cheney's biography of Louisa May Alcott would meet those conditions. Or possibly Susan Wittig Albert's mystery series about Beatrix Potter -- I don't think there was much of a love interest in the only one I read, except for mentions of her editor's death. Oh -- and a mouse romance. I think the first one had Hunca-Munca romancing a country mouse.

I started out as a female physics major, and I had very similar experiences to yours as regards the word "cute." My problem set group was great, but the other people in the department -- uh, sometimes not so much. The worst "cute" story was a then-friend of mine who told her problem set group she felt like she wasn't contributing enough. "That's okay," they said. "We keep you around because you're cute."

The other most-horrific-story contender was the experience I had at a department picnic, standing with a bunch of guys I knew who were in a higher-level physics class. They were arguing about a problem on their latest problem set -- back and forth, grabbing the group's attention, trying to refute eachother's points with volume and problem-related thrown napkins.

One of them finally came up with an argument that convinced the rest of the group, and they all backed down, nodded, generally quieted down. And then -- the guy who had solved the problem put his arm around me. Like I was some sort of cute stuffed animal in the carnival of Physics.

I switched into earth and planetary a year or so later, and it was a much, much better place for me.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

My undergrad physics department, when I wasn't off doing research, was a wonderful, wonderful place. I don't know if the professors set a tone that the male students followed or if we just had better male students than average, but the only gender-related problems I had at home (=GAC physics) was the occasional eye-rolling run-in with someone from another department.

I only read cute books ...

[jymdyer.livejournal.com]

=v= Does Miss Marple have romantic inclinations? (I wouldn't know. I don't read books that don't have romance in them.)

I have found that people will often say "cute" to avoid being slapped for what they really want to say.

Re: I only read cute books ...

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Poor "people." I'd much rather be hit on than patronized. (Presuming that people don't try to multitask and do both at once, which is really deeply unpleasant.)

[careswen.livejournal.com]

mmerriam has a knee-jerk reaction to being called "nice" -- he'll grimace and shudder uncontrollably. He suffered from Nice Guy Disease: all the girls thought he was a great friend, but would never consider him as a love interest, because he was so Nice. Instead, they would flounce off with whatever testosterone-charged asshole flashed his convertible at them, leaving the Nice Guy all alone.

I have tried to help him overcome the horrified feeling when somebody calls him Nice. Smart Girls like Nice Guys, I remind him (being a data point). But it's still a long way down, as they say.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I argued once with a college housemate over 'nice.' She was of the opinion that nice = boring. I disagreed.

I do think, though, that nice is necessary but not sufficient for more-than-friends.

Books

[mamapduck.livejournal.com]

I can't think of "absolutely no" examples, but Sue Grafton's Kinsey Milhone books (A is for Alibi, etc) are pretty close. There are a few dates, but men are a minimal part of her life. I don't recall her being prone to profanity and the violence is mostly "off screen".

[zalena.livejournal.com]

I was going to say Alexander McCall Smith, particularly the Sunday Philosophy Club, but then I realized that even though the protagonist is older and the books aren't particularly violent or romantic; sometimes she remembers romance, or tries to fix up her niece.

This is a tough category. How 'bout Old Lady Who Swallowed a Fly?

[diatryma.livejournal.com]

I thought of the Ladies' Detective Agency, but I've only read the first book and it wasn't what I wanted exactly.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

My knee still jerks and probably always will. When you are an engineer in an engineering company and you get a new chair that needs some assembly and people (other engineers, not facilities people who might legitimately consider furniture part of their job) try to take it and do it for you for no other apparent reason but that you are small, young and female, what can you assume they think of your professional skills?

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

Oh, and re books - I think the Miss Read suggestion someone made above is brilliant. No romances except a few peripheral characters, no sex or violence except in innocuous offscreen ways. But they don't suck at all. (IMO - I know you hated Miss Clare Remembers.) For a strong female protagonist, I'd recommend the Fairacre series rather than the Thrush Green ones; the former have a more consistent POV in its heroine.

It's a hard set of requirements, because the first two no-romance books that came to mind are Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment and The Deeds of Paksenarrion and given that the heroines of both are soldiers some violence is inevitable. Since you just said no "graphic" violence, the field of mysteries opens up - Miss Marple, Tey's Miss Pym Disposes, Sister Carol Ann O'Marie's mysteries centering around a nun (a secondary character has some romantic scenes but nothing graphic and with her own husband). And there are the Hilary Tamar mysteries, whos protag *might* be female.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

The Caudwell Tamar books, whose protagonist reads as not only male, but smugly male, to me, also contain tons of sex, though not involving the protagonist.

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

I suggest your librarian friend ask that question on the project-wombat mailing list. See http://project-wombat.org for details. Non-members can send queries.

It's mostly for librarians faced with questions they can't answer from their own resources; though there are non-librarians on the list, including me. Its predecessor, the Stumpers list, found answers for questions ranging from the name of the German ambassador to New Zealand in 1934(?) to where to buy clothing for plaster geese.

[redbird]

If the patron wouldn't mind mysteries with little or no violence (there are mentions, for example, of someone being stabbed, but it's a detective telling someone it happened, not direct narration, nor detailed), Heron Carvic's Miss Seeton mysteries might suit. The first is called Picture Miss Seeton. There are five by Carvic; apparently he then died, and the estate has hired other writers, who in my opinion do not do justice to the character. The title character is a spinster in her sixties, who has no interest whatsoever in marriage or romance, though she thinks it's a fine and suitable thing for young people to fall in love and get married.

[dendrophilous.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I hate being called cute, for pretty much the same reasons.

I went straight from "Don't call me cute while I'm holding this hydrogen torch" to dealing with similarly macho city and law enforcement officials.

Luckily, most people weren't a problem.

[sam-t.livejournal.com]

I've just been through my bookshelves and there seems to be precious little that isn't disqualified under one category or another. The only genres I can think of are cozy mysteries (if that doesn't involve too much violence) and biographies of women whose lives might not produce too many reports of violence, romance, or swearing.

The only thing (apart from Miss Read) on my shelves that might qualify is Joyce Grenfell's wartime journals. There's violence in that the reader knows what happens to soldiers in wars but you don't see any of it. Interesting accounts of someone with an interesting social background touring the world performing to soldiers, often in hospitals. There's a surprising amount of social scene rather than soldier-y stuff, if that makes sense. The book is The Time of my Life: Entertaining the Troops - Her Wartime Journals, Joyce Grenfell, ed. James Roose-Evans.

[haddayr.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure you need to apologize for your reaction to our sexist society (no calling whoever called you cute sexist; calling society sexist.)

Also, you're not a bit cute; you're beautiful.

Me? Cute.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

markgritter alleges that cute and beautiful can coexist in the same person. But thanks.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to want, especially considering how romance and sex are so often the focus of fiction, and how I can think of plenty with male protagonists. It isn't all I'd want, but it ought to exist, no?

If only I hadn't put violence into the Sulien books! Actually I think The King's Name ought to count. No sex, no romance, older female protag, and the violence isn't very graphic. But unfortunately, it won't make sense without the first book. Eh well. I don't suppose there's a prize anyway.

Hmm. Are widows OK?

If so, then Remnant Population, Elizabeth Moon, and In This House of Brede by Rumer Godden. No romance, sex, swearing, but the main characters have been married and had children in the past.

It would be a lot easier if violence were allowed.

Keri Hulme's The Bone People almost counts. One brief description of masturbation, some swearing in Maori, appalling unbearable but oblique violence.

Rosemary Kirstein The Steerswoman, one offstage sex act, no romance, no swearing, minimal violence. The second book has romance, the third and fourth do not, but won't make sense without reading the second book.

Anthony Price Tomorrow's Ghost -- some violence, not graphic. Damn. She's a widow too.

Somebody already mentioned Miss Pym Disposes, which immediately came to mind.

And here we have the only thing I can think of which absolutely and totally qualifies:

An Episode of Sparrows by Rumer Godden.

No sex. No romance. No violence. No swearing. Spinster protagonist.

[kjc.livejournal.com]

I second the recommendation for Kirstein's Steerswoman series.

But I would say there's more than a minimal amount of violence, especially in the 4th book. It's just not terribly graphic.

[seagrit.livejournal.com]

"I'm not cute. I'm a geek" has about the same effect and is not in the past tense. Then you get to those times where you're a geek who's trying to be cute, and all bets are off.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Also some of Dorothy Gilman's books, the first few Mrs. Pollifax books in particular. This is the one where she's a 70 year old who goes off to join the CIA. (Now that I think about it, though, stick to the first four (Unexpected, Amazing, Elusive, and A Palm For...). After those, she meets an older guy on safari (while in the line of duty, though) and they fall in love and all that. The first four deal in spying and very good friendships.)

[mightyjesse.livejournal.com]

...

Ahahaha. I've never really been called cute at the office... Probably because most of the people who would have been TEMPTED to do it were warned discretely by my gleeful colleagues that I'm a STRIPPER. And will probably eat their heart, crash their PC, and turn them in to HR for such an offence. I wouldn't really, but if it delighted my guys to tell it like that, and it kept the idiots out of my way, then I was happy to let them tell it their way.

I guess it assuaged the shame of having to come to me to get their new hard drives installed and their "I-was-surfing-for-porn-on-my-office-pc" spyware removed...

*evil laughter*

On the other hand, I have a Dr. Friend who is in his early 40's and uber cute... Mostly because he's the only person I know who tells girls not to worry about the "cute little bread mold" growing on their lunch...