Help me, Lj-wan Kenobi.

[mrissa]

Ah! I remember what I was going to ask you lot now.

Can you think of Athos- or D'Artagnan-like characters elsewhere in literature? (The Phoenix Guards and further volumes do not count because I've already thought of them.) Gender is no object if the author doesn't make it one. Half-credit for Porthos- or Aramis-like characters. Quarter-credit for a) other characters that remind you of specific Dumas characters; b) other characters that seem like they belong in Dumas, even though you can't quite say where; or c) comparisons that make me giggle madly.

ETA: It occurs to me that my internal automatic mappings of this question onto Margaret Cho's proclamation about "The Sweet One, The Smart One, and then there's The Ho" may say very disturbing things about what I consider sweet.

Comments

[dherblay.livejournal.com]

I should have an answer to this, shouldn't I? Does the entire Rafael Sabatini canon count?

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure. I only read Scaramouche, and it was less Dumasian than I'd been led to believe or was hoping for.

But yes, you're letting your username down!

[skzbrust.livejournal.com]

I don't remember what character is who, but the full set are there in The Princes of the Air by John M. Ford (1982, Pocket Books, ISBN 0-671-44482-4; 1991, Tor Books, ISBN 0-8125-0958-7)

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Ah. That we have. Can reread. Thanks.

[kjc.livejournal.com]

We used to call the quartet structure Leader, Warrior, Mystic, Clown.

In a good quartet, each of the characters has one of these as his or her primary personality trait, but each is capable of taking on all the roles, depending upon the situation.

The mystic is sometimes the scientist or the priest - the mediator between the known and unknown.

The warrior is sometimes the warrior of peace or the warrior of love. It's not always battles, it's more of a personality trait - second in command, first into battle. The weapon can be a sword or a gun or a very attractive appearance.

I've always considered the Muskateers as a classic representation of the quartet. If I'm recalling them correctly, Athos = Leader, Porthos = Warrior, Aramis = Mystic, and D'Artagnan = Clown.

The Ear, The Eye and the Arm by Nancy Farmer has a Leader, a Warrior, and a Mystic but no clown in a full-time role (and hence, no D'Artagnan).

This is much easier to do with movies - the Beatles movies, for instance. Or TV, like the Scooby Doo cartoons and Star Trek.

Um, oh! Mysteries! Both Holmes & Poirot have leaders (Homes/Poirot), Warriors (Watson/Hastings), and Clowns (the cops). The bad guy was the mystic, since s/he was mysterious/unknown.

Who else has good sets of people. Oh! Tamora Pierce's The Magic Circle Quartet. Sandry is the leader (Athos), Daja is the warrior (Porthos), Tris is the mystic (Aramis), and Briar is the clown (D'Artagnan). It works for the Alana books too; Jonathan is the leader, wossisname (Jonathan's best friend) is the warrior, Alana is the mystic, and the cat is the clown.

Hmm. Pirate books are good for quartets, because you usually have a captain, a second, a woman, and a cabin boy... but I can't think of any. (Thinking of sailing books, I'd say Moby Dick but someone would hunt me down and thwack me.)

I think I should stop now.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I am not entirely clear on the Dumas-character assignments here. Warrior and Clown in particular seem to be up for some discussion (although thank you for not just automatically treating Porthos as an unmitigated buffoon -- possibly my top Dumas-discussion annoyance).

The woman is always stuck being the mystic? We'll have none of that here! (I believe you that it's often the case in pirate books. I just don't care to replicate it.)

[kjc.livejournal.com]

I should preface, that I was partly hoping to amuse you as well as provide a potential structure for discussion.

I am not entirely clear on the Dumas-character assignments here. Warrior and Clown in particular seem to be up for some discussion

Well, my thoughts here are that D'Artagnan is the reader's POV character, the - what's it called? there's a term for it. Is it entré character? I can't remember. Stupid brain.

Anyway, the innocent or newbie usually gets the role of clown, as well as being the reader's POV character, because s/he makes mistakes and has to have things explained (exposition). D'artagnan is our newbie, the catalyst for action, chaos, and drama.

While Porthos exhibits clownish behavior, I'd consider it a secondary characteristic rather than primary. While they all lead at various times, all fight, all clown around, and all have grave thoughts, Porthos - with his size and his appetite - seems to me to be the one that everyone automatically assumes will be the fighter.

But I could be persuaded otherwise.

The woman is always stuck being the mystic? We'll have none of that here! (I believe you that it's often the case in pirate books. I just don't care to replicate it.)

Not necessarily. If the Captain's second is particularly philosophical, he'd get the role. If there are any supernatural types or a priest, that character would get it. If the woman was the best knife thrower, or the best sneaky distraction-based seducer, she's probably end up the warrior.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

One of the people on my friendslist came up with a humorous interpretation of anime/manga foursomes that we called the Four Bishounen of the Apocalypse: Angsty, Snarky, Brooding, and Cute.

(and the amusing thing is that I think the four characters in Saiyuki map onto the Leader, Warrior, Mystic, and Clown quite well.)

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I am overcome with indecision trying to figure out which one I am. If someone declared me Cute, I would get Snarky at them. If someone decided I was Brooding, I would probably get Angsty about it. It's all very confusing.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

I think I'm solidly Snarky, no matter what. Especially to the people who try to declare me Cute.

[kjc.livejournal.com]

Ha! Nice. Angsty, Snarky, Brooding, and Cute would work for a LOT of TV I've seen.

(and the amusing thing is that I think the four characters in Saiyuki map onto the Leader, Warrior, Mystic, and Clown quite well.)

It's a very popular construction, especially in TV shows, anime/cartoons, and movies because it provides a nice variety of points of view as well as distinct and separate personality types.

[cyphomandra.livejournal.com]

If you're looking for explicit Dumas references, Diana Wynne Jones' Fire and Hemlock has Polly casting herself and Tom Lynn's chamber music group in the roles of the musketeers. My copy is in a box far, far away from me, but I think Polly sees herself as Athos and Tom as d'Artagnan, and - hell. I think the viola player - Ann? is Aramis, and I've completely forgotten who Porthos is, although I think he's blond. And now I really want to read the book again, in that hope of getting just a little bit further into understanding the ending...

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I love that book. Possibly should go on the reread pile as well.

[aszanoni.livejournal.com]

Hm. My memory must be off. I thought [remembered?] Polly as d'Artagnan and Tom as Athos. Perhaps because it feels more that way to me than as how she delegated roles.

It could also be from her renaming herself as Hero too. =grin=

I do love that book.

- Chica

[cyphomandra.livejournal.com]

No, no, I'm sure you're right. Because I could have sworn I typed "Polly sees herself as d'Artagnan and Tom as Athos" and yet there it is, the wrong way round. Oops.

And I still can't check, as my distant book box hasn't moved any closer. Maybe it's time to check the library.

[alecaustin.livejournal.com]

Mm. D'Artagnan and Athos are fairly specific archetypes, so I'm having a hard time coming up with any close parallels (other than the obvious ones that you've already mentioned). There are parallels to D'Artagnan in Robin Hobb's heroes, but that's mostly because they never get rewarded for what they do - instead, the universe/author craps all over them.

My instinctual response on Porthos is to think of Barak from Eddings' Belgariad, but that's almost an insult to Porthos. Aramis is interesting because in most authors' hands, his ambition and tendency to meddle in politics would make him an antagonist.

Hrm. Now that I think of it, the closest analogues to D'Artagnan, et. al. that I know of are characters from the Romance of Three Kingdoms. Cao Cao (prounced "tsao tsao") is a fairly close match to Aramis in the early parts of the book, while Zhang Fei is a close match to Porthos, and Guan Yu resembles Athos (as, to a lesser extent, does Liu Bei - the oath of brotherhood that Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, and Liu Bei swear also links them to the musketeers in my mind). Due to the prevalence of strategists and schemers in the book, there are other possible Aramis analogues as well, such as Zhou Yu, Sima Yi, and Zhuge Liang (who ends up serving Liu Bei). While brash young D'Artagnan types are a little thin on the ground, I think Zhao Yun probably qualifies. Lu Xun might as well.

Outside of classical Chinese literature, here's an obvious Edmond Dantes parallel in Gully Foyle from Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination. I'm blanking on other Dumas-related characters at the moment, but I'm sure there are more that I've forgotten.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Wheee, ambition and tendency to meddle in politics!

Is there a translation you like in particular of Romance of the Three Kingdoms?

[alecaustin.livejournal.com]

I have this version (http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Three-Kingdoms-Chih-Yen-I/dp/0804816492/ref=sr_1_5/103-0743781-6512644?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173133287&sr=1-5), but that doesn't necessarily make it better than the others (I honestly haven't compared them at all). I think my only major objection to that version was that it used Wade-Giles romanization, though.

[clarentine]

Kushner's Swordspoint, and the sequel The Privilege of the Sword? They have the flavor of the words you're after, I think, and if Michael in Swordspoint isn't a D'Artagnan I'll eat my hat. Likewise, Catherine in tPotS. If you count Athos as wise, clever, and utterly lost, then you might also find him in Alec in both books--in Swordspoint, he's still idealistic enough to believe in right and wrong, while in tPotS, he's mature and becoming bitter but not afraid to use the power he has to shore up what he thinks is right (and to hell with the rest of world if they don't agree).

Brust and Bull's Freedom and Necessity have a quartet that share attributes amongst themselves, and might qualify. And the writing is lovely, and the ending (like the ending of many of Dumas's novels) made me cry.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

This is shaping up to be a great reread list, even if it doesn't end up doing what I want!

Probably not helpful

[kokyu.livejournal.com]

Both Scooby and Shaggy are Porthos-esq in appetite if not in frame.

Which would make Fred Aramis. One at least suspects he wears Aramis.

Re: Probably not helpful

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Oh, great, now my mind's nose had to smell Aramis-the-cologne for awhile. Thaaaaanks. I will try to get it to smell Aramis-the-character for respite.

Also, I would not rely upon either Shaggy or Scooby to design or build fortifications for me.

Re: Probably not helpful

[timprov.livejournal.com]

Sure. He has a great ambition to be the most indispensible voice actor of all time.