Spamming lj for one more question

[mrissa]

Say you were reading a novel set in a world other than this one. If you came upon the phrase "dark skin," would you assume that the character would be described as "black" in the US (or possibly "Indian," encompassing various kinds of South Asian as imprecisely as US terminology tends to)? Or would you assume that the character was "white" but with a tan or "olive" complexion? Or would you wait for other cues/clues?

If other cues, would "wiry black hair" sufficiently tip the balance to make you envision someone of similar appearance to sub-Saharan African peoples in this world?

If neither of these would be enough, what could a writer do without comparing her character's skin to food to indicate that general appearance sufficiently for you? Note that the character in question has skin that's dark brown but not so dark that "black" would be an accurate term in a fantasy setting where that term wouldn't come with the cultural baggage it has here -- we only call some fairly pale brown people "black" because of cultural baggage, not because of any proximity to the actual color black! If I tell you someone in a fantasy novel is black-skinned, I want you to see black skin, like Cherryh's atevi.

I ask because it took me most of a Rex Stout novel to realize that the "dark-skinned" young woman character was not, in fact, meant to be African-American, so I suspect that different people are (or at least were!) reading different things into the same words.

Comments

[brooksmoses]

I would probably have interpreted the description in the Stout novel the same way you did -- "dark-skinned", to me, implies someone who has skin which is, on the scale of the colors of skin that people-in-general have, "dark".

As for adding more cues, describing the skin color as "brown" or "dark brown" would almost certainly suffice if I had any doubt.

[barondave.livejournal.com]

In fantasy or sf, you assume anything at your own risk. I wouldn't assume a "dark skinned" character was necessarily the equivalent of a black person in the US. It would depend on many factors. (Is Worf "black"?)

Yes, words change over time and there were no "African-Americans" in Rex Stout's time. For better or worse. The internal definitions and consistency of language is one of the reasons why (good) fantasy and sf is timeless.

[jebbypal]

would saying something like "skin so dark the dirt-streaks showed up lighter" or something work? A contrast.

[zunger.livejournal.com]

"Dark skin:" I'd wait for other cues, if reading SF. For all I know, "dark" may mean a particularly deep Navy Blue. Wiry black hair wouldn't really resolve it.

I'm pretty sure you could get the color across without resorting to food, though. Hardwoods, stones, animals, natural phenomena, television tuned to a dead channel... I'm sure the people of that world would have some favorite set of metaphors for skin color.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

"How do you know she's king queen who will be empress of the entire continent in ten years?"
"She hasn't got shit all over her!"

But point taken.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

If I read the description of someone with 'dark skin' and 'wiry black hair', I'd probably envision someone similar in appearance to a sub-saharan African in the real world. But it would depend somewhat on the larger context of the story, too.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

"Empress" is a vast oversimplification, I feel the need to clarify.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Well, I believe Michael Dorn would be identified by most Americans as "black," and he's not very different from Worf in color....

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

I think I would still need more contextual clues to make the assumption. Getting the skin tone exactly right wouldn't be enough, either -- there are too many stories where skin and hair traits just don't map to combinations currently available in the human genome.

[stillsostrange.livejournal.com]

I would probably think of African or Indian skin colors, especially with wiry black hair. When denied food comparisons, I'm fond of woods--I have gotten a lot of mileage out of sandalwood and mahogany and such.

I've encountered descriptions like that too. If the writer means "tanned", I wish they could say so.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

In the previous paragraph, someone else is described as having "sun-touched sallow skin." Helpful?

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

In older realistic novels, "dark skin" doesn't mean Negro, because Negro is a very special classification off by itself in the corner there; they're not people with dark skin, they're *Negros*.

In more modern ones, unfortunately (or not), it can be more confusing.

A fantasy world is much more complicated; it depends on whether I've ended up with the impression that the people and social relationships are like here or not, for one thing. Brown skin and kinky black hair together would for sure make clear the author was describing what we call Black here these days; you don't need to add the thick, pouty lips to the litany (and that's a less-standard item).

I think it's going to get confusing in the near future, though, at least if the new immigrants from Africa interbreed with the African-American community to any significant extent.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

Huh; what color *is* sandalwood, anyway? I don't think I've ever seen any.

And I think I know mahogany is pretty dark, but that's almost entirely from books. Teak, now, I know better in person, but it's not so useful as a skin refererent.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

Huh; I might figure that out as describing a tanned white person in an environment where they're not common. Even "probably", if nothing else was distracting me at the time.

[kijjohnson.livejournal.com]

oak leaves in autumn
Iowa loam
walnut shells, coconut husks, pecans
roe-deer's fur
buffalo hide
the creamy brown of a mountain stream during the spring floods

like that

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

I would assume African or South Asian (Tamil, etc) until proven otherwise. However, "dark" can mean "dark hair" to Brits, for example, or the Black Irish, which were and are not Black.

Rex Stout was writing a . . . while ago.

[zunger.livejournal.com]

Sure... but categories are really relative to the culture. Another Klingon would probably call Michael Dorn "black," but I don't know if he would call Worf the same.

It makes me think of ethnic lines in Israel versus the US. Over there, an Ethiopian and a Russian from St. Petersburg are considered to be much more on the same line of the ethnic divide than a ninth-generation Jewish Jerusalemite and a ninth-generation Palestinian Jerusalemite are. Whereas anyone who isn't local would be hard-pressed to tell which is which among the latter two. It's not that the color difference isn't noticed, it's that people draw their mental lines very differently.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Wow, your channeling of early-20th novels there is scarily accurate.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

There is no Iowa there. But I do see what you mean, and I like the mountain stream in flood. Or even a river in flood.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Good, because that's what it is in that case.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

To me, "dark-skinned" means something in the range of African-American -- that is, not so dark as some African peoples (for whom I would use "black" as a color term, rather than a racial one), but not just a tan white person either. It could also mean the Arabic or Indian sort, but there are other adjectives (like "dusky") that would tip my brain more in that direction.

"Mahogany" might be an alternative non-food comparison.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Well, and that's part of what's interesting in doing it in a fantasy world: the lines do go in different places. People recognize that the queen is the king's foreign bride -- she looks foreign. But she isn't crazy amounts of foreign, she's normal amounts of foreign -- and it certainly isn't a noticeably worse ethnic grouping, not like those awful awful people from the mountains who are barely civilized and I wouldn't want my son married to one, my dear, think of how awful for the children!

[the-flea-king.livejournal.com]

Dark skin makes me think of a Native American skin tone, for some reason. Black would say African to me. If you want _REALLY_ black, then I guess I would pick on that if it was really focused on and made a point of. I guess it's one of those weird things for caucasians like me who grew up in places with no minorities?

[zunger.livejournal.com]

Hmph! Speaking as a barely civilized person from the mountains, I can only say "Grr! Og!"

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I would _probably_ guess that "dark skin" was aiming for black. But I couldn't guarantee it. I could see (have seen) myself going in other directions, including simply "darker than most of what's around," which might mean, yeah, white-but-tan.

In combo with "wiry black hair" I would probably fall in the direction it sounds like you'd be trying to push me.