Spamming lj for one more question

[mrissa]

Say you were reading a novel set in a world other than this one. If you came upon the phrase "dark skin," would you assume that the character would be described as "black" in the US (or possibly "Indian," encompassing various kinds of South Asian as imprecisely as US terminology tends to)? Or would you assume that the character was "white" but with a tan or "olive" complexion? Or would you wait for other cues/clues?

If other cues, would "wiry black hair" sufficiently tip the balance to make you envision someone of similar appearance to sub-Saharan African peoples in this world?

If neither of these would be enough, what could a writer do without comparing her character's skin to food to indicate that general appearance sufficiently for you? Note that the character in question has skin that's dark brown but not so dark that "black" would be an accurate term in a fantasy setting where that term wouldn't come with the cultural baggage it has here -- we only call some fairly pale brown people "black" because of cultural baggage, not because of any proximity to the actual color black! If I tell you someone in a fantasy novel is black-skinned, I want you to see black skin, like Cherryh's atevi.

I ask because it took me most of a Rex Stout novel to realize that the "dark-skinned" young woman character was not, in fact, meant to be African-American, so I suspect that different people are (or at least were!) reading different things into the same words.

Comments

[brooksmoses]

I would probably have interpreted the description in the Stout novel the same way you did -- "dark-skinned", to me, implies someone who has skin which is, on the scale of the colors of skin that people-in-general have, "dark".

As for adding more cues, describing the skin color as "brown" or "dark brown" would almost certainly suffice if I had any doubt.

[barondave.livejournal.com]

In fantasy or sf, you assume anything at your own risk. I wouldn't assume a "dark skinned" character was necessarily the equivalent of a black person in the US. It would depend on many factors. (Is Worf "black"?)

Yes, words change over time and there were no "African-Americans" in Rex Stout's time. For better or worse. The internal definitions and consistency of language is one of the reasons why (good) fantasy and sf is timeless.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Well, I believe Michael Dorn would be identified by most Americans as "black," and he's not very different from Worf in color....

[jebbypal]

would saying something like "skin so dark the dirt-streaks showed up lighter" or something work? A contrast.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

"How do you know she's king queen who will be empress of the entire continent in ten years?"
"She hasn't got shit all over her!"

But point taken.

[zunger.livejournal.com]

"Dark skin:" I'd wait for other cues, if reading SF. For all I know, "dark" may mean a particularly deep Navy Blue. Wiry black hair wouldn't really resolve it.

I'm pretty sure you could get the color across without resorting to food, though. Hardwoods, stones, animals, natural phenomena, television tuned to a dead channel... I'm sure the people of that world would have some favorite set of metaphors for skin color.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

If I read the description of someone with 'dark skin' and 'wiry black hair', I'd probably envision someone similar in appearance to a sub-saharan African in the real world. But it would depend somewhat on the larger context of the story, too.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

I think I would still need more contextual clues to make the assumption. Getting the skin tone exactly right wouldn't be enough, either -- there are too many stories where skin and hair traits just don't map to combinations currently available in the human genome.

[stillsostrange.livejournal.com]

I would probably think of African or Indian skin colors, especially with wiry black hair. When denied food comparisons, I'm fond of woods--I have gotten a lot of mileage out of sandalwood and mahogany and such.

I've encountered descriptions like that too. If the writer means "tanned", I wish they could say so.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

In the previous paragraph, someone else is described as having "sun-touched sallow skin." Helpful?

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

In older realistic novels, "dark skin" doesn't mean Negro, because Negro is a very special classification off by itself in the corner there; they're not people with dark skin, they're *Negros*.

In more modern ones, unfortunately (or not), it can be more confusing.

A fantasy world is much more complicated; it depends on whether I've ended up with the impression that the people and social relationships are like here or not, for one thing. Brown skin and kinky black hair together would for sure make clear the author was describing what we call Black here these days; you don't need to add the thick, pouty lips to the litany (and that's a less-standard item).

I think it's going to get confusing in the near future, though, at least if the new immigrants from Africa interbreed with the African-American community to any significant extent.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Wow, your channeling of early-20th novels there is scarily accurate.

[kijjohnson.livejournal.com]

oak leaves in autumn
Iowa loam
walnut shells, coconut husks, pecans
roe-deer's fur
buffalo hide
the creamy brown of a mountain stream during the spring floods

like that

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

There is no Iowa there. But I do see what you mean, and I like the mountain stream in flood. Or even a river in flood.

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

I would assume African or South Asian (Tamil, etc) until proven otherwise. However, "dark" can mean "dark hair" to Brits, for example, or the Black Irish, which were and are not Black.

Rex Stout was writing a . . . while ago.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

I got interested in the overlaps of the careers of various authors I hadn't much thought to associate, and ended up producing a page graphing the overlaps of their careers: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/contemporaneity.html

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

To me, "dark-skinned" means something in the range of African-American -- that is, not so dark as some African peoples (for whom I would use "black" as a color term, rather than a racial one), but not just a tan white person either. It could also mean the Arabic or Indian sort, but there are other adjectives (like "dusky") that would tip my brain more in that direction.

"Mahogany" might be an alternative non-food comparison.

[the-flea-king.livejournal.com]

Dark skin makes me think of a Native American skin tone, for some reason. Black would say African to me. If you want _REALLY_ black, then I guess I would pick on that if it was really focused on and made a point of. I guess it's one of those weird things for caucasians like me who grew up in places with no minorities?

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I would _probably_ guess that "dark skin" was aiming for black. But I couldn't guarantee it. I could see (have seen) myself going in other directions, including simply "darker than most of what's around," which might mean, yeah, white-but-tan.

In combo with "wiry black hair" I would probably fall in the direction it sounds like you'd be trying to push me.

[cpolk.livejournal.com]

you know, my skin is not cafe au lait. I'm not even sure if it's butterscotch.

but when people say that, I imagine it's because they think I would be good to eat.

(don't eats me! okay, pretend eats me. that's fine.)

but, denied of food comparisons? straight to earth-centered nature. dead leaves, unstained rosewood, or teak, a matte copper, ochre, umber, etc.

hey, how do you do this for paler folks, anyway? because alabaster? I don't buy it, unless that someone has been living in the geek underground.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

*puts on list: no eats the Chelsea* Got it.

Seriously, that's part of why I'm dodging food comparisons: part of it is that I've heard people are sick of them, and I can see that, but part of it is that we are talking about the queen here -- she is a fun person and a very smart person and gorgeous, but there is not even the slightest hint that most of the people who encounter her will be allowed a nibble.

My massage people have told me that I have "alabaster" or "porcelain" skin. I translated this as, "Wow, you're really really white! Don't feel bad, though. Noooooo melanin here! But don't be upset."

"Milky." I have also seen "lobster," which amuses me, as it looks to me like a polite version of "fishbelly" or "maggot." I have just started wondering about "birch bark," for people with freckles. My great-aunties have skin like lefse, which is only helpful if you know from lefse. Sort of like tortillas, though, pale with some brown spots, a little floury in texture once they get old. Some kinds of parchment, although many are too dark for us.

Also you can talk about translucence -- my veins are visible in many places, which is an indication of how extremely pale I am. Also it means you can compare me to gorgonzola/cambozola/other blue or bleu cheeses.

Don't eats me either, though.

[timprov.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't want to try to communicate an Earth ethnicity in other-world fantasy, because it's a breaking the fourth wall issue.

Hopefully the characters can deal with it naturally.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Well, that's just it: the characters would naturally say she's a dark-skinned Parelian with wiry black hair. I'm not going to put anything in that would be counter to what they'd say.

[songwind.livejournal.com]

I think I'd have to wait for more clues, though I would probably assume the character to be of some darker-than-caucasian variety.

Why wouldn't the author simply use the term "brown skinned"? Also, why the opposition to comparison to food? Cliche?

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

"Brown" is a pretty big color range. Most human skin tones are browns.

And yes, the food thing is partly the cliche. It's also -- as in my comment above to cpolk that this is not a character anyone has the impression they might get to nibble on. It's a dignity thing.

[mallory-blog.livejournal.com]

I think a reader will bring their baggage to the description. I don't tend to think black if I read dark, nor to I tend to think white if I read pale or light. I tend to think what you register first comes from what you might be sensitized to or have wounds around. If you said wiry hair my first thought would be my late husband whose hair was utterly unmanagable and was therefore cut to crew length - it was also red. My sister has thick thick hair with each hair about double the thickness of mine - it is also a bit unmanagable and resembles a mane. My friend in high-school used to oil and iron her hair, for the same reasons. In all of these cases the individuals appear caucasian. I say appear because I tend to believe that all humans are related - we are all black, brown, yellow, red, gray and white - what we see on the surface is just where our dna was at the moment of birth. How big or little such exterior bits play in a novel are likely to influence me as a reader - in general, I like reading about interesting people, not different flesh pigments.

[orbitalmechanic.livejournal.com]

Would a geographical referent be appropriate? People normally have that skin for a reason--would your character come from the south desert? That's a bit of a fourth wall issue again, I guess, but I think it would be legit.

[orbitalmechanic.livejournal.com]

Obviously I meant, people have any particular skin for a reason.

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

(before reading the other comments)

Well, to eliminate context cues, I guess I'll imagine the story on a space station where any mixture of races may happen -- Babylon 5 or DS9 or such. Words like 'tanned' or 'bronzed' definitely suggest that the character is not of the 'dark-skinned races' (but may be a time-traveler from public domain). With random distribution of earth races, I'd take 'dark-skinned' to indicate Semitic/Arabic/Pakistani appearance (possibly Amer-Indian). The 'wiry black hair' might suggest 'curly/kinky wiry black hair' and tip the image to Sub-Saharan if it came soon enough, especially if it came before the 'dark-skinned.' As a code-word, 'wiry' does suggest curled, but in fact some straight hair is just as coarse (Middle-Eastern, Far East, Amer-Indian.)

[[ the character in question has skin that's dark brown ]]

I've seen 'mahogany' used for that, most recently in LEARNING THE WORLD for the character Constantine, and I had the impression that he's 'black' in all senses. Of course iirc there are different shades of mahogany, or at least darker woods. Hm, 'ebony' seems to have drifted in my mind to something more like polished jet than black wood.

I guess I'd wonder whether the author is making a point of his skin color and/or his racial background, and why.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Wow. One or two words of description would make you wonder whether the author was Making A Point? Would it if the skin was "milky" or "fair"?

[hobbitblue.livejournal.com]

I usually wait for the hair or eye colour reference before I decide if the author means tanned or more than that, handiest if some reference to the local culture and difference from/similarity to. Tis tricky.

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

Dark is always a subjective descriptor. Dark brown plus wiry hair might do it for me. To be perfectly objective, the hair description you want is probably more like "soft and woolly" than "wiry." Black people don't really have "wiry" hair, do they? This is certainly not a trivial challenge.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Some do. Some don't.

[sculpin.livejournal.com]

Dark skin plus wiry black hair is probably going to wind up meaning Pacific Islander to me, especially Micronesian.

But since she's the queen, she's probably doing something really interesting with her hair. Whether it's a fabulous froth of hair, or cut very close, it's her hairstyle that'd probably tip me over into seeing her as looking sub-Saharan.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. See, but the culture in question is not at all sub-Saharan -- rather swampy, mostly -- and the queen is as written by me, which is to say that nobody's hair is more than mildly interesting, like, ever.

Ah well.

[tanaise.livejournal.com]

I am incapable of getting skin colors from anything less than the author holding me down and showing me paint swatches. I would read your character as first sort of a tanned-Germanic look--literally, my dad's coloring because he is so much darker than me (http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/marsh/own_page/deccan.html), and then with the wiry haired bit *maybe* towards an ethnic jewish look, but maybe not. My hair's pretty darn wiry, after all.

Seriously, I read Neverwhere and never noticed that the Marquis was 'dark-skinned'. After I'd seen the movie, when I went back through the book and read the character details though, it was obvious. I don't know if it's because I'm me, and thus book characters are on a scale of me to not-me, but I wouldn't surprised if it was the case.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

But you already know you're incapable of it, so you're not going to decide she's "white" and complain to me that I only write "white" characters, so no problem.

[tanaise.livejournal.com]

Oh, I also meant to add that I have a character in a story who is a dryad, and in the process of thinking about how she thinks about colors, I realised that 'the color of leaves" covers everything from the palest green to dark brown.

[wshaffer.livejournal.com]

My interpretation of "dark-skinned" depends on context - in a book set in relatively modern America, I'd probably interpret it as indicating "black", whereas in modern Britain, I'd tend to lean "Indian". Of course, other cues like the wiry hair or a personal name with an obvious ethnic/cultural slant would also influence me. In a fantasy novel, things obviously get trickier, but most fantasy novels do draw from historical earth cultures, so I'd probably interpret things based on those.

LeGuin's Earthsea books and Delany's Neveryon series are books that I think do a good job of conveying the skin colors of various characters without directly making use of ethnic terms from our world. Of course, in both those series, it's the dark-skinned people who are "normal", and pale-skinned pale-eyed barbarians who are the outsiders.