mrissa: (intense)
[personal profile] mrissa
So. One of you (locked post; identify yourself if you like) was talking about writing long-form stuff, novels and great big novels and series, and asked me how to avoid getting 100 pages in and ditching the thing. That person said, "You've written lots of long things. So do you research all the little bits first? Or do you just do the general outline and dive right in? :)"

Well.

I think I have the same answer that I always have, and lately I really do mean always: that the important thing is finding your own characteristic errors and then working around those. Some people will bog down if they have to do all their research first. The momentum that comes from story will not be present until words are on the page, so the research will feel pointless and fruitless. Others will bog down if they try to write something where they don't know half the stuff they need to know to write the simplest scene, and doing research first will give them firm ground on which to stand. And that's just the most obvious pair of problems coming from that question. Writers are creative types! What this means is that we are extremely good at coming up with new and different ways to go very badly awry, once we exhaust the standard ones. Um. Go us, I guess.

I do research in strata. I come upon something -- a fact, a phrase, an image, a voice -- and that's the seed. And then I have at least a couple of paragraphs of actual fiction -- this is the part where I'm not writing the book, you remember from a few days ago? And even in a few paragraphs, you can tell sort of what kind of book it's going to be. You can smell the colors of it. You can smell the difference between far-future SF on a space station and far-future SF on a natural planet and far-future SF on a terraformed planet, much less other coarser gradations or axes orthogonal to those in voice and mood. And from that you start to see what else you need to know, and whether it's stuff you need to find out from factual sources or pull out of the nooks and crannies of your own brain or, usually, both. And as I get more information, I write more bits of fiction, pages or lines, whatever, and then I know more of what I need to think thinky thoughts about, so I do some more of that, and I am still reading stuff about Finnish history and vacuum-tube computing and spies for books that have been drafted for years now. Because I'm still revising, and because they're not published, so it's still not too late to find out more really neat stuff that might have some direct or indirect bearing on the story I've written.

A hundred pages is not as arbitrary an arbitrary number as it sounds. At a hundred pages, or a hundred fifty, you either have to know a bunch of things about what you're doing, or you've written yourself into a corner. At a hundred fifty pages, if you don't know the structure of this thing you're making, it'll often fall apart under its own weight. At a hundred fifty pages, the bits that seemed all fresh and sparkly are either already introduced. You are stuck with the now-what. You are stuck with the bits that makes this thing you're doing a novel and not a short story with exposition bloat and pointless witticisms. You've got the elements that you squealed at your friends, the ones that made your friends go, "COOL!" and made you feel like a rockin' writerbeast, if you are a squealer-to-friends. And now you realize that no matter how cool the tagline is, nobody cares if you don't make it a book. And if you have a book that sounds really cool and then sort of mopes around doing nothing and sulks into an ending of sorts, that's worse than if you never had a book to begin with, because you had a really awesome idea, and you wrecked it. You idiot. What if you can't ever fix it from here? What if this idea has all the shiny rubbed off it and no amount of polishing will ever make it shiny again? You fool. You utter moron.

This is where your stage-of-career doubts come in. Some major categories:

I have never written a novel before! Probably I can't actually write a novel. Lots of people never do. Most people, even. My friends who have written novels are probably all smarter than me, and also more talented, and also harder working, and also they have better hair/have some hair/have cleverly removed all traces of hair so that they are not vexed by the pressing questions of hair that are keeping me from novelistic brilliance, damn you haaaaaair!

I have never written a good novel before! I Nanoed my way through one, or maybe there was that time when I was in high school, but then it turned out to be crap and probably everything else I write will be, too; heaven knows that being able to stick more than 40,000 words together in sequence does not make you Hemingway, and I don't even like Hemingway, although I liked The Hemingway Hoax all right, and gee, wouldn't reading some more of Joe Haldeman's stuff be a better use of my time than finishing this novel that will probably stink up the place anyway? Of course it would. Off we go.

I have written what I am convinced is a good novel, and it hasn't sold. Welcome to my world. If the shininess that was the last book hasn't sold, this one has to be super-duper-extra-shinerific or it won't sell, either! Never mind that the publishing industry is plagued with institutional poverty and greased with extremely chilly molasses, so only two editors and a dozen agents have even had a chance to reject this book and a couple of them have not done so. Or else never mind that all the rejections were about category, not other elements of the book that are more likely to carry over into the next work. Or that they were all handwritten and extremely positive. Or whatever. The past book is written. It is good. It is submitted. People have rejected it. Fame and glory* have not come my way. Likely the same thing will happen with the next book. Quick! Come up with something even shinier! This book's main character is only a shapeshifting pirate ninja! I need a shapeshifting pirate ninja zombie who rides a unicorn that can shoot laserbeams out its horn and fly!

I have not yet experienced the stages of noveldoubt that come after you have published novels. I remain convinced that they are there, and I suspect a few of you can describe them for me.

So all that shows up when the shiny rubs off, and you have to figure out whether you have spent 100 pages discovering that there is no there there or whether you have run into the mire of noveldoubt and need to press on if you're ever going to get anywhere with this. In some ways it gets easier when you've done this before, because you can greet it when it shows up, "Hullo, noveldoubt, old thing," and you can just be glad that "noveldoubt" doesn't scan in the place of "darkness" or you'd be singing to yourself about a vision softly creeping leaving its seeds while you were sleeping and silence like a hotdish and that, like ya do.

But if you let yourself wallow in noveldoubt, you get nowhere, and you start repeating mistakes you learned not to make years ago, or else should be learning not to make right now, and so what you do is, you live with what you put down. You either tear out the bit with her mother because that's not going to work, or you go forward, fine, okay, mother thing, right, what does this mother thing actually mean? You remind yourself that writing is, for the most part, actual work, and while it beats digging ditches in some ways and trying to resuscitate dying infants in some others, it has a few drawbacks here and there. And one of them is that when you pull entire worlds out of an orifice, nobody can really tell you you've done it right until you've actually done it right.

And if you decide that the novel you were in love with last week isn't worth finishing, okay. Sometimes this is entirely correct; or at least it isn't worth finishing now. But if you decide that the novel you were in love with last week isn't worth finishing three or four times in a row -- if you have 100 pages of four or more novels on your harddrive, or else you deleted them off it to get around this decree, then maybe noveldoubt is running the show a bit too much, and it's time to deal with lack-of-shiny for awhile.

Where am I with my own novel? Page 144 and counting. It's still shiny. Stay tuned.

*Q: Wasn't there supposed to be fortune somewhere in there?
A: No. You are -- at least for the purposes of this scenario -- a writer. Fortune rarely comes into it, except in phrases like, "I've never heard a car make that noise before! That's gonna cost a fortune."

Date: 2007-06-05 08:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madam-silvertip.livejournal.com
Amen.

I'm at the stage right now at looking at my shiny bits and purging them to make a novel, or what will grow into a complete one. Shiny is NOT a story. (Sor-reee!)

Though I'm agnostic about web publishing, and it has been a huge boon to people I respect, I fear that is one inherent danger of web publishing as of other communal means of sharing writing around (writers' conferences, etc.): mistaking shiny for story.

Date: 2007-06-06 03:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
I think that using the term "web publishing" here conflates a lot of things that don't necessarily come with similar bugs or features. Baen's Universe is web publishing. Ideo is web publishing. Etc.

Date: 2007-06-06 05:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madam-silvertip.livejournal.com
True.

I suppose I'm thinking of SELF-publishing via the Web, though even there, it's not equally true of everything. Maybe more in excerpts than wholes, because whole works pretty quickly sort shiny from substance.

Date: 2007-06-05 09:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jimhines.livejournal.com
I have sold a few novels, but I have used up all of my good ideas and will never again write anything as good. Because now there are readers, and they have expectations, and I'm halfway through this draft and it's a bloody mess, and I don't remember the other book being so hard, and doesn't that mean I'm a failure and I should just give up while I'm ahead and wouldn't it be more fun to hop online and check my Amazon ranking again instead of staring at this train-wreck of a plot?

Date: 2007-06-05 09:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com
Oooh! Oooh! I know that one!

Date: 2007-06-05 09:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jimhines.livejournal.com
Obnoxious, isn't it?

Date: 2007-06-05 09:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com
How did writers survive before they had the internets and LJ to periodically reassure them that, though they are in this alone, they're not the only one in it alone?

"Hello, self-doubt, my old friend . . . ."

Date: 2007-06-06 03:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
"Not the only one in it alone" is exactly it.

Date: 2007-06-05 10:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eposia.livejournal.com
or maybe there was that time when I was in high school, but then it turned out to be crap and probably everything else I write will be, too;

*chuckle* Did you read my mind directly or is the high school crap-novel writing experience really that universal?

This was not only helpful but quite amusing to read. Thank you!

Date: 2007-06-06 03:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
I don't know that it's universal, but you're definitely not the only one! And thanks!

Date: 2007-06-05 10:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dsgood.livejournal.com
What I need to get a story going is at least one character who's come alive. Note that all the spreadsheets etc. for designing characters won't help me with this; they can result in character roles, but not in characters.

Till I have that, everything I have is just notes. And much of it is no more useful than Tony Hillerman's collection (from early in his career) of lovingly polished first chapters which didn't end up in the finished books.

Date: 2007-06-06 03:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com
That's very true for me, too. And right now I'm having the problem that one of my two main characters has come alive, but the other one is still struggling out of his shell.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2007-06-06 03:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Thanks!
(deleted comment)

Date: 2007-06-06 03:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Still shiny! Wallow in the still shiny! I know I am!

Outlines good. Really. I originally typed, "Outlines god," and I do not have the energy to write the "writer's pantheon" entry tonight, nononono.

Date: 2007-06-06 03:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com
I do not have the energy to write the "writer's pantheon" entry tonight, nononono.

Heh. You should, if not tonight. It would be a dualistic pantheon, I think, about the eternal war between Self-Confidence on one side and Self-Doubt on the other.

Date: 2007-06-06 12:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
But then there's Self-Aggrandizement on the other side of that, so maybe more of a Golden Mean sort of a pantheon.

PS about outlines

Date: 2007-06-06 03:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Except when they're not good, I mean.

Date: 2007-06-05 11:46 pm (UTC)
pameladean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pameladean
Oh, yeah.

I have forgotten how to write a novel.

I have only one novel in me.

I have only one universe in me.

This universe is stupid.

This new universe is bald and unconvincing and no amount of corroborative detail will make any difference.

That story was fine and messing with it is stupid.

I am not smart enough to mess with that story.

All these new characters are boring.

I have forgotten how to come up with characters.

All my writing is just a series of tics.

Repeat ad nauseam. Or, well, don't.

P.

Date: 2007-06-06 03:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
I am constantly coming up with things I am not smart enough to write.

Some of them I write anyway.

It's a funny old world.

Date: 2007-06-06 03:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com
All my writing is just a series of tics.

Oh, god. I suspect it's a universal experience that the more one writes, the more one becomes aware of repeating things, from favorite phrases all the way up to plot arcs. Things a reader might gloss over become glaringly obvious to the author, who (of necessity) is aware of every word that goes on the page.

Not that this has been driving me crazy of late or anything.

Date: 2007-06-06 06:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dichroic.livejournal.com
Maybe a reread of the collected works of L.M. Montgomery is in order - I can't think of anyone else who stole from herself on such a wholesale level - everything from phrases (she used "the most charming sound in the world - the low yielding laugh of a girl held captive by her lover" at least 3 times, and it still creeps me out) on up to entire story lines that were used as both a short story and a subplot in a novel. (Or maybe the publishing industry has changed so much that what worked for her wouldn't work now, in which case never mind.)

Date: 2007-06-06 12:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
This is why most of my L.M. Montgomery books are in boxes in the basement and only a few are on the shelves: if I get a twerpie who is into them, she or he will want to read them all, but the story line things bugged me.

Date: 2007-06-06 12:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dichroic.livejournal.com
"The story line things" - the story lines themselves, or the wholesale reuse of them?

I didn't really notice it so much until I read the short stories.

Date: 2007-06-06 01:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
The wholesale reuse, although some of the story lines themselves made me want to hurl (the book across the room, maybe, on a good day).

Date: 2007-06-06 01:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dichroic.livejournal.com
In the case of the short stories, at least, I think she considered them as potboilers, and as fair game to make as much money from a story line as possible. In the novels, there's less excuse.

Date: 2007-06-06 01:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
I don't really think, "I decided to do a crappy job," is actually an excuse of any kind.

Date: 2007-06-06 01:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dichroic.livejournal.com
If you consider it a perfectly good plot to start with, as presumably she did and you don't, and if you live in a time when you have ready access to loads of short story markets in two countries, does filing off the serial numbers and reorganizing the material then sending it out to earn more necessarily constitute doing a crappy job?

(If she considered the plots crappy too, then I agree there's not a good excuse. I haven't read her journals.)

Date: 2007-06-06 02:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Plot is different from story. If you're just filing the serial numbers off story, then yes, I do think it constitutes doing a crappy job. If you're using the same plot, well, some writers go their whole lives with only one plot. But the story varies a good deal more substantially.

Date: 2007-06-06 01:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com
That is a little creepy.

But I doubt the industry has changed that much; I'm sure there are still authors out there who recycle themselves on that scale. (I could probably name a few, but I'll be nice.)

Date: 2007-06-06 03:40 am (UTC)
ext_12575: dendrophilous = fond of trees (Default)
From: [identity profile] dendrophilous.livejournal.com
Hello bookdoubt my old friend...

Good post.

Date: 2007-06-06 12:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Thanks!

Date: 2007-06-06 01:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arielstarshadow.livejournal.com
I love your entries about writing. Now that I'm really doing it (for real this time!!), just hearing about other writers and their experiences and the internal monologues in their heads is so very helpful. As others have said, "We're not in this alone."

Thank you for being willing to take time out to post to this virtual world we've all helped to create out here...now wouldn't that be an interesting pseudo sci-fi novel!

Date: 2007-06-06 01:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Thanks!

Date: 2007-06-06 02:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ksumnersmith.livejournal.com
I am now strangely tempted to have a novel-angst icon that says DAMN YOU HAAAAIR! Not that I have room for it, but still ...

Date: 2007-06-06 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Would it feature Shatner? Or maybe Tim Allen as Peter Quincy Taggart? Or the Futurama cartoon of Shatner?

(You do realize that on some visit we're going to strongly suggest that you should watch some Futurama.)

Date: 2007-06-07 03:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ksumnersmith.livejournal.com
Too hard to choose!

(You do realize that on some visit we're going to strongly suggest that you should watch some Futurama.)

I was getting that feeling, yes. But I'm a trusting individual, and you all tend to have pretty good taste, so I'm willing to give it a try. There must be funnier episodes than ... well, whatever it was I saw.

Date: 2007-06-07 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
We won't make you watch more than 20 of them before we'll let you off the hook if it's not your thing.

Kidding. Seriously. No more than 2.

Date: 2007-06-08 02:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ksumnersmith.livejournal.com
Hee! No, that's fair. (And hey, I'd go for all 20, just for the company.)

After hearing me say that I wasn't a fan, [livejournal.com profile] msagara handed me her DVDs for season 1 of Buffy and told me that I had to watch a couple from the beginning rather than from random seasons to properly gauge whether it was my sort of thing. It wasn't. But I gave it a really fair shot.

Date: 2007-06-08 12:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
I did watch a couple from the beginning, too. One Thanksgiving Day when all the people in our CA social circle at the time were raving about them, there was a marathon on TV, so I watched some from the beginning. Not my thing, either.

Date: 2007-06-07 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timprov.livejournal.com
Much as I love the show, there are some seriously unfunny episodes, so it's very possible.

Date: 2007-06-08 02:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ksumnersmith.livejournal.com
At the time, I was very disappointed. I'd been so hopeful.

Date: 2007-06-08 02:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timprov.livejournal.com
Do you remember any plot details? I've watched even the bad ones a disturbing number of times at this point.

I think [livejournal.com profile] mrissa's 2 is underestimating a bit. I'd probably try 4-5 before giving up.

I imagine that once we figure out just how deep your default answer to "Have you seen..." questions goes, we will not be lacking in nifty things to show you.

Date: 2007-06-08 04:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ksumnersmith.livejournal.com
No, unfortunately. It was quite a while ago.

And okay, you get your 4-5. But if I've watched 2 and they're not that funny yet, I'm holding out for a really awesome snack before the third one. Just so you know.

I've probably seen more of the sorts of things that you and Mris find to be important than some others' choices, but really ... yeah, haven't seen much.

Date: 2007-06-08 12:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
I imagine that once we figure out just how deep your default answer to "Have you seen..." questions goes, we will not be lacking in nifty things to show you.

Seriously.

Date: 2007-06-06 02:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elizawrites.livejournal.com
Here via [livejournal.com profile] swan_tower.

Yeah, I'm so printing this out and taping it to my monitor or maybe forehead.

Date: 2007-06-06 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
Heh. Thanks.

Date: 2007-06-06 09:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snickelish.livejournal.com
Found your blog via [livejournal.com profile] swan_tower and decided to stay. I've lived in Corvallis and near the cities (Northfield), but I don't think I've ever met you. I have, however, read and enjoyed your hockey-and-magic story that was in On Spec a while back. :)

Date: 2007-06-07 01:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com
How nice of you to mention it! Welcome!

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