More plumbing uff da

[mrissa]

I have a rather subtle point to make, so I hope you can follow it if you read veeeeery carefully.

When I want to call up and talk to a friend, I ask questions like the following: "How are you? How is your partner/spouse/love interest/parent/child/other family member/other friend/co-worker/other person of mutual acquaintance? How is your writing/knitting/gardening/baking/painting/other creative endeavor? Have you seen any good plays/movies/concerts/interpretive dances/performances of other interest recently?" And so on.

When I want to talk to a plumber about putting a bathroom in my basement*, I ask questions like the following: "Do you do this type of work? How many similar projects have you done? What materials do you use? How much will it cost? In what time frame could you accomplish this? For how long have you worked with your contractors? Do you see any problems with this project of which I should be aware?" And like that.

Do you see the fine line I am drawing, the delicate distinction I attempt to make?

So why, then, would the people I called to send out someone to do an estimate on this job, instead send someone who wanted to talk to me about her children and their lives and who could not do an estimate on this job? Why, in fact, did this woman come stand in my basement and take up my time and explain to me their fee structure (95% before work begins sounds like a mighty good deal to me--a mighty good deal for them, that is) and reassure me about things that did not previously worry me (and, in fact, do not worry me now) and lie to me about what GFI stands for--and then confess that if we wanted an estimate, she could send someone out in a few days, probably sometime next week?

Why would I want this at all? My friends are more interesting. My contractors are more useful. You, lady, are neither. Shoo! Shoo. Honestly. Honestly.

We want a bathroom. In the basement. Currently there is a patch of concrete sheltered from storms by the rest of our home, and we would like for it to become a room--in fact a room of the bath variety--complete with walls, storage spaces, and an assortment of fully functional plumbing items. We do not want an endless stream of design discussions. We do not want reassurance that your multinational conglomerate gives your franchise buying power. None of the other contractors seem to find this idea difficult. Lucky thing.

*I am unable to say this right the first time around, either aloud or in writing. I always speak of putting a basement in my bathroom, which is, it turns out, not at all what we want.

Comments

[kaustin.livejournal.com]

How is your partner/spouse/love interest/parent/child/other family member/other friend/co-worker/other person of mutual acquaintance?

Do you use the Victor Borge method of Phonetic Punctuation, or do you just say "slash" between each of those?

[orbitalmechanic.livejournal.com]

If you do find a contractor who can fit an entire basement into a bathroom, please let us know!

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I have too many friends who are fanficcers; I have to go with the Victor Borge method, or they will be freaking out that I think they are writing co-worker/other person of mutual acquaintance slash.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Well, at this point we could stick a toilet in the basement and tile the floor and call it a giant bathroom.

But what I mostly don't want is for my bathroom to have stairs down to an underground lair in it.

Um. Let me get back to you as to whether that is what I want, actually, now that I think about it. Rephrasing things to include underground lairs often makes them more appealing.

[ckd]

"See, if you twist the faucet like this, the tub lifts up to expose the secret stairwell. Just make sure you drain the tub first."

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I think you would do your local friends a favor by passing on the name of that contractor, maybe in a locked post.

That was indeed an odd situation. And 95% before the job begins? Run away, run away!

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I am just astonished that there are people who say, "95% before the job begins? Well, sounds reasonable to me!" Not just that--there are enough of them to keep these people in business for years.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Usually you have contractors try to make it less likely that your basement will flood.

[retrobabble.livejournal.com]

Doesn't know what a GFI is? *scratches head* Oh. dear.

The biggest challenge I see is getting the toilet drain in and where your existing sewer line in the home is in order to hook up the two.

If you need a recommendation, let me know. Sounds like you've got it under control though...

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

...I'd rent that place.

[thoughtdancer.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this isn't *that* challenging. I've not put in a whole bathroom (ripped one out, not put it in), but I've done a lot of small house improvement sort of work and the worst of what you're facing has to do with where the current lines run, pipes run, and drainage is.

After that, it's lots of fun with a jackhammer (I'm assuming a concrete floor), and then the standard work for doing any other bathroom. Lots of it, but not that crazy.

I'm assuming there's an egress in the basement, sans the staircase? One local set of building codes I saw required an emergency exit if a bathroom went in to a basement (the locals had not liked the way people would not officially get a bedroom in the basement, but had created sleeping space, so the building codes attached the required egress to the bathroom, not just to a bedroom).

Good luck finding someone.

[orbitalmechanic.livejournal.com]

That's because you're not hiring evil genius contractors. Your loss!

[carbonel]

Contractors are a really frustrating breed, in my limited but ever-increasing experience.

I ended up buying a new house because I had a contractor who couldn't give me useful information.

Okay, that skips a few steps. But I had a contractor who came highly recommended (at that point) when I wanted to redo the existing bathroom and add a new bathroom upstairs. He couldn't give me really useful information about how much the new bathroom would cost, how long it would take, or whether it was even possible. Mind you, this was the actual contractor, not someone who worked for him. And for the existing bathroom, he kept waffling about decor and saying that needed to be my decision. I wanted guidance -- not hand-holding, but a reasonable amount of guidance. I was ready to give him money and say "go for it" right at that moment, but I was so frustrated I let him leave and didn't call him back.

And later, Pat used him for some bathroom work, and wasn't pleased with the results, so maybe I dodged a bullet. And in the end, I bought a house with two bathrooms instead of adding a new one.

Also, once you do have someone who's actually doing the work, most of them want to know about your family/friends/hobbies. I don't know if they've all read the same book that says "take an interest in your clients" or if they're trying to drum up potential new business or what, but they talk. A lot. (That's generalizing from, I think, three examples, and throwing out one as experimental error.)

I have noticed...

[dlandon.livejournal.com]

A certain reluctance from some contractors to put quotes in writing. When I have pushed back i've heard such things as 'don't worry, it won't go over that,' etc. Which is particularly annoying when the question was 'will you pit that in writing, please?' not, 'will you go over the quote?'

and 95% up front says 'fraud' to me, not reputable contractor. Uff da, what a waste of your time!

- D

[ckd]

Exactly! After all, if you're going to build an evil-genius slow-motion deathtrap (that they will inevitably escape from just in the nick of time) for your nemesis the superhero/secret agent/pizza delivery driver, tying them up in a room that's slowly flooding is one of the classics.

[redbird]

Indeed. What mrissa and her family need is control of exactly when the basement will flood, and with what.

Re: I have noticed...

[redbird]

How, she asked naively, do they respond to "I'm glad it won't go over that. Now can I have that in writing?" (I envision myself saying things like "if you're sure it won't go over that, why won't you put it in writing?")

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yah, the two previous people I had in to do estimates were perfectly capable of seeing the spot where the toilet drain should go relative to the sewer line, so I think this is probably a fairly straightforward situation for that. And there'll be another person coming in yet. (And if they don't want to do estimates, I'll call more.)

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

We have just had the egress window put in, yes. This is a basement-basement, not a half-basement, and without the egress the only exit from the basement would have been the stairs that run directly over the furnace and other mechanicals. So many of the fire situations we could imagine would directly trap timprov; better to get the egress in right away. (Also better for the property value, being able to list it with that as a bedroom.)

[orbitalmechanic.livejournal.com]

PRE-cisely.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Most of our contractors have not felt the urge to talk to me. Possibly this is because I have tended to get (mostly at random, even!) Taciturn Northern Males of various makes and model numbers.

Re: I have noticed...

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yah, if they won't put it in writing, they won't be doing the job for me, and that's that.

Re: I have noticed...

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

No future in refusing to put it in writing -- at least if they want to deal with me! But I've never encountered that, in house-owning and hence contractor-exposed living since 1978 (and including two furnace replacements and a couple of roofs).

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

I think to some extent it's just that it's a job that keeps them away from people a lot, and if they like a little light social contact, the people they see are their clients.

Also, the ones that make it as independent contractors doing work for homeowners have to be fairly good at talking to customers in the pre-sales role, and most of them probably aren't so self-conscious about that that they can turn it on then and turn it off later.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

My plumbing mentor uses a sledge hammer for the floor, rather than any of the powered approaches. He said he tried a cement saw once, but the dust raised was ruinous. Also the rough broken edges are actually better for the new cement to bond to than cleanly cut edges would be.

We've got the plumbing in the floor, and have started framing. I'm currently the hold-up, I need to be putting some insulation into the outside wall, and disposing of some debris.

[reveritas.livejournal.com]

A taciturn type, I see ...

Re: I have noticed...

[retrobabble.livejournal.com]

They sound inexperienced, D. The ones that say it won't go over? Go over.

I hang with a different group of contractors, but I'm cheating. :D

Architectural trends

[avocadovpx.livejournal.com]

the 00's -- the two-story foyer

the 10's -- the two-story master bedroom

the 20's -- the two-story master bathroom

It could happen. How much bigger can they make the master bedrooms and bathrooms in new houses?

[rushthatspeaks.livejournal.com]

Run away! Run away!

No, wait, that would leave her standing in your house.

Cattle prod?

The best contractor we ever had was the one who, when my parents' escape-artist extremely territorial chow somehow broke out of an extremely locked basement and sank teeth in his rear end, downed tools and instead of, say, suing spent forty-five minutes in the backyard petting and talking to the dog. All I could overhear was 'and you are never going to bite anybody again, are you?' And said chow, who had conclusively failed four obedience classes, two professional difficult-dog trainers, a specific-to-chows behavior-mod program, and was one bite away from a county destroy order, has never bitten anyone again.

I forget how much extra my parents paid the contractor, but he has earned their loyalty unto death.

[orbitalmechanic.livejournal.com]

Plus I think most people are more comfortable feeling like their house isn't occupied by a total stranger. Perhaps a taciturn not-stranger, but even a professional relationship is a relationship. And, I won't lie, when my three-year-old races to answer the front door for the plumber, the plumber better say hello to her.

(Okay, my actual plumber has been my mother's plumber for twenty years so it's different.

[columbina.livejournal.com]

I have never experienced contact with this garrulous species of contractor you speak of, although I am willing to accept your assurances that they exist.

The few who have not annoyed me so much that I won't give them the job tended toward the extremely taciturn end of the spectrum.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

In the idiom dictionary next to the entry for "above and beyond," uff da wow.

[cattitude.livejournal.com]

The basement in the bathroom would be an updated version of the traditional two-story outhouse, yes? My father told me about those.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

We still have one south of here, in Belle Plaine.

Where by "we" I mean "Minnesotans" rather than "my family personally."

[diatryma.livejournal.com]

That contractor is... wow.

[cissa.livejournal.com]

Mine, too, get chatty. The best of them ALSO work. :P

Here in lower NE, we are apparently short on the Taciturn Northern Males.

[cissa.livejournal.com]

And another WOW!

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

Bless her heart.