Barnstorming on an Invisible Segway

I read a few of their books because I read literally everything my grade school library had. Blech.

Nobody in my physics major had the sheer stupidity to try the "Mars/Venus" bullshit on any of us. We may have been technically outnumbered, but in practice...yeah. They knew better.

Elsewhere in the Victoria's Secret catalog: a $10,000,000 bra (everybody had better coordinate so I don't get duplicates of that one for Christmas), a necklace the same price as our house, and the line, "Nobody loves your body like our jeans." I went to

markgritter to get reassurance that he is, in fact, fonder of my body than a cheap piece of denim is.

Also, there is something labeled a "ballet top" that I will swear has never been worn by an actual ballet dancer, ever ever ever, at least not for the performance of ballet.

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I think they largely mean history books with stuff like quilting in them.

When I was in grade school, I read several biographies of early feminists. But I wouldn't have described those as inaccessible to boys.

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matociquala.livejournal.com

Actually, I have to say, your ass is pretty angelic. Just, you know, from over here.

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It is rarely my ass that gets me in trouble. Almost always my mouth. Occasionally hand gestures. So I suppose you're right.

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mmerriam.livejournal.com

A $10,000,000 bra? I can hear my wife's voice in my head going about never wearing anything that is, at least monetarily speaking, worth more than your entire body. And it's just going to end up on the floor anyway...

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Well, there are only two possible things for women to be, angels and whores. And VS doesn't want to be branded as selling to the whores, so they've only got one choice.

But it's scary that there are people left who still remember that universe.

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songwind.livejournal.com

You know, Lucifer was an angel.

I'm just sayin'.

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Yeah, and it was *his* mouth that got *him* in trouble too, wasn't it?

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Neil Gaiman did observe, when commenting on his stories in the "World's End" arc in the Sandman work, that he was alternating two types of stories. (I very loosely paraphrase the following.) One was boy's adventure stories where the outer world was explored; the other was girl's stories about people and personal exploration. This might be what the publisher you're talking about is getting at. Of course, I think Neil was more interested in showing the failures and successes in both stereotypes, than in presenting a one-sided picture, which is why he covered both genres. Joseph Campbell, the folklorist, said that the full picture would include both inner and outer exploration as part of the hero's myth.

Just something to think about.

Mack

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Mrissa,

I have actually seen the picture of the bra you are referencing, because a teacher brought it around the faculty when I was teaching (attempting to do so, anyway) English at a junior college. It is one of the most thoroughly decadent things I have ever seen and would probably make Marx attempt the revolution all over again.

On a related note, I was at my local college town this Saturday to see Dr. Strangelove (a perfect Halloween movie for an election year), and afterwards I went walking with a friend up and down the bars and clubs. Costumes were out in full force. Some were clever and funny (one dressed as a wastebasket, another as the character from the Crow, Alice in Wonderland, etc), but the majority for the women resorted to pure sex appeal. My eyes were threatening to leap out of my head.

Most of the people who dressed up were fraternity and sorority people, I think, but I could be wrong. Of the women, most were dressed in some version of lingerie, prostitutes, French maids, princesses, wedding dresses, butterfly wings, or as nearly naked catgirls and dominatrixes. I can't help thinking something is wrong here, but I don't know what.

Do these represent their inner fantasies? I was attracted, but it was all about sex and sexualizing, and involved few higher brain functions. I felt jealous of the men who were escorting them and the sort of drinking/clubbing/high sex lifestyle many of these people have, but later I thought that there was something wrong with all of this. I'm not sure if I'm just repressed or if I'm on to something.

Why do so many girls want to play the slut? What is it doing to the men who are attracted to this? I feel the attraction, but not the respect. Is it possible to feel both at once? I worry that I can't be attracted to a "nice" girl anymore, but maybe I don't get to see enough of them.

Mack

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A nice girl can turn on as much sex-appeal as she wants -- at men she's involved with or seriously interested in. At least by my definition.

But I do find that I'm still strongly attracted to some nice girls without their having to be nearly naked, in catsuits, or dominatrixes.

Your mileage may vary!

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No, Michael, I really think that with a $10 million bra, you leave it on for the screwing.

Which is Reason #347 why I don't want one: it just looks painful that way.

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The angel comment was of course on the same page as entirely see-through nightgowns with spangles (air-brushed so as not to show nipples, naturally). I think the message was supposed to be "go ahead and be a whore and tell yourself you're an angel," rather than "ignore that dichotomy."

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I think I'm attracted to almost anyone in a certain age range with an XX chromosome! Well, not quite, but you get the idea. I suppose it's the curse of being male. I do find the above categories of display rather attractive, but that's just because they're flaunting it. So I wonder if my feelings are just natural when you're single, it's been a long time between relationships, and you're trying to wait for marriage. Not an easy task.

I wonder how other people manage?

Mack

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Those things are: 1) fictional rather than nonfictional conventions and 2) entirely stereotyped in what appeals to whom.

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Halloween is a "safe" holiday for a lot of things. You don't have to be particularly attached to a specific fantasy to give it a go once on Halloween. It's -- well, look, have you ever run into someone who was acting much drunker than he/she was? It's because alcohol can be an excuse to discard inhibitions. So can holidays like Halloween and Mardi Gras. Also, I think wearing a slinky Elvira-esque dress on Halloween is much less of a coded signal than it would be on some other day. And other signals have shifted even within my memory; certainly over the last hundred years.

I was concerned about the 13-year-old who came to my door in a Playboy bunny costume. I really think that that many inhibitions, at least, could have been maintained. If nothing else, she was freezing her fluffy little tail off. I was not convinced that she could have handled any male attention that came her way.

This slut/nice girl dichotomy is coming awfully close to the angel/whore thing for my comfort, I have to say. It seems awfully one dimensional as a way to judge whether a woman is "nice." But in any case, I wouldn't worry about being attracted to a "nice" girl; as an old married person, I can tell you that scruffy horrible clothes can start to look awfully cuddly on the right person.

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minnehaha.livejournal.com

As a marketing idea goes, that bra was brilliant. No one buys it, of course. That's not the point. The point is to get reporters to write articles about it and people to talk about it. Worth many times the diamond rental and construction costs.

Some people are just brilliant.

B

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markgritter.livejournal.com

Does this mean there is an end in sight to your campaign against my horrible yellow T-shirts?

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Those shirts were horrible before they were scruffy. Becoming scruffy does not make them look cuddly.

Kind of like the dress-shopping mantra, really: you look fine. The shirts look wretched, but you look fine.

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Ah. There I go, comparing apples and oranges in a discussion again. You're right that the divisions are fictional, and this seems especially pertinent since "The Sandman" is an epic story about the nature of stories -- all the discussion is about the nature of stories.

But you're saying that the fictional conventions of boy's and girl's stories have no correlation to who reads them? Or upon further reread of your initial posts, you're saying that there is no real division between male and female of who sees a given type of story? I feel confused and possibly a little dense. I do see in my daily life that, for instance, certain movies (action blockbusters) are marketed primarily at men, and certain other types of movies ("The Horse Whisperer") are marketed primarily at women. I don't particularly fit into the categorization itself, but I think male and female genre stereotypes are alive and well for many people. I don't think this is a great thing, but I do see it, at least here in the American South.

Mack

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I don't think I've ever seen Halloween as a safe holiday. (But then, I have other issues about it which are not relevant.) I do understand what you're saying, though I don't think I've ever seen quite as many discardedinhibitions in one place as around campus the previous night. Perhaps it's just that my inhibitions are in place for a reason, and so I'm no longer comfortable being around people who are uninhibited.

Playboy bunny costumes at thirteen seem awfully close to the "bought into the dominant paradigm" problem, and I agree that it's not an appropriate costume for that age.

The dichotomy comes too close to my own comfort levels, for that matter. I agree with you intellectually about it being one-dimensional and simplistic thinking; I'm just not sure my emotional age has matured to that level. Appearances tend to be confusing. All in all, I probably worry about this far too much. Apologies.

Mack

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markgritter.livejournal.com

Now I'm curious, but frustrated, because "diamond rental" is just one of those things you can't search for on Google.

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wilfulcait.livejournal.com

It may be true that certain books appeal to more members of one gender than the other, but that's not what AG said. They said "If the approach would appeal to boys as well as girls, it is not right for American Girl Library." That suggests to my eye not just "girls will like it better" but "boys won't like it at all."

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I don't think it was *ever* much over half for me. But I've had various bits of evidence over the years that I myself don't constitute a valid statistical universe.

The concept of waiting for marriage terrifies me. There's too much to learn both about sex and about living with somebody for me to think it wise for your very first project to have to be the masterwork of your life.

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Are you saying that these genre conventions apply into the nonfiction world? If so, can you list for me the nonfiction genres that are of interest solely to one sex or another?

Also, having something marketed primarily at one sex or another doesn't mean making absolutely sure that the opposite sex is disinterested. As

wilfulcait said.

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I feel about the same way about inhibitions: those I have are there for a reason, and if I discard them in a specific situation, it will be deliberately and consciously, not with some trumped-up excuse.

No need to apologize. Thinking at it all from different angles is allowed.

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scottjames.livejournal.com

But sometimes it's your mouth that gets your ass in trouble.

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shamaneyes.livejournal.com

Oh, I've never actually figured out the percentage, of course. It just *feels* that way sometimes, I suspect. It all depends on my mood.

As far as waiting for marriage goes, let me clarify. My past experiences have all been disturbing, unhappy, or both. I also became involved in some dominance and submission scenarious that were very bad for me. At this point, I want to avoid any further damage, as really I'm not very comfortable with sex or sexuality of any sort. I've learned too much about the wrong things at this point; I honestly think it will be a long time before I can really trust anyone or myself in those areas again. Marriage to me means that someone wanted to wait long enough to have me for me, not for what I could do for them.

Mack

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mmerriam.livejournal.com

I went and looked at the thing online, and I agree with you. It just looks like it would be painful that wyt. I'm just thinking about getting diamond burn on the old body. Ouch!

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dendrophilous.livejournal.com

Lucky.

One of my grad school letters said: We have 24 students coming next year. 8 are women. We look forward to meeting this challenge.

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Was that intended to be in terms of learning differences or in terms of social differences? Or both, or couldn't you tell?

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