(no subject)

[mrissa]

I've already been talking about this with one of you on e-mail, but I decided I needed to say it publicly:

You know how people are always talking about stress and pain and grief as learning experiences? They can be, sure, if you think about them and work at it. But you know what? I think joy and relaxation and just plain fun can be learning experiences, too. They can be cause for us to grow as people, too. They can teach us valuable things about the world, too. We are not just monkeys with sticks. We can be monkeys with carrots, too.

Hey, do monkeys eat carrots?

Umm, right. I think I'd better finish my potica before I make any more pronouncements.

Comments

[supergee.livejournal.com]

Maybe bonobos use them as sex toys.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Eat your potica, coyote man.

Dang, now that sounds kind of dirty, doesn't it? Some people are not good influences.

[angeyja.livejournal.com]

Mmmm. Smiling.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Why, do you like potica?

It's good, but I don't think I'd buy it with raisins in again. The plain walnut, the poppyseed, and the apricot are all better. But all they had was the kind with raisins, so that's what I got.

[angeyja.livejournal.com]

I was smiling for a couple of reasons (see elsewheres) one of which was because it was a new word for me.

[lthomas987.livejournal.com]

Where do you find potica in town? Mostly I make my own.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Anything can be a learning experience. The interesting questions involve determining which sorts of things are more likely to be.

B

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

I think the difference is, most people don't feel they have to justify the joyful moments. They just *are*. Pain, on the other hand . . . There ought to be a reason for pain--either we've done something to deserve it, or else we're going to be a better person when we resolve it/endure it.

Maybe the key is to be aware, on a deeper-than-surface level, no matter what the situation is. After all, there are people who don't learn from the bad, either. Think of the folks who go through the same bad relationship over and over, with only the masks changed.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Pain, on the other hand . . . There ought to be a reason for pain--either we've done something to deserve it, or else we're going to be a better person when we resolve it/endure it.

That ascribes a good deal more motive to the universe (and/or to God, depending on who's proposing this notion) than I think is warranted. Why did my cousin die? Heart attack. Not my virtue, not my vice, not my need to learn; I am not the center of the universe. Not even of my loved ones' worlds. Why did my old teacher die? Blood clot. Again, not me. It's human to impose structure on the observed world, but I think we need to be extremely careful about remembering that that's what we're doing. Most of the "higher meaning" explanations I've heard for pain have fallen entirely flat when tested for proportionate response, and I think the answer is generally because we live in an entropic universe.

And unfortunately, I think some people do feel they need to justify the joyful moments. Sad but true.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this all afternoon (except for when I had to keep getting Entropic!Baby off the coffee table). My own tendency is to want to find some point to suffering (my own or others'), just because it seems even harsher to have a universe in which bad things happen without the victim getting any benefit out of it.

But you're right in that it's an arrogant thing to do, and imputes too much importance to myself or my view of how the world ought to operate. My hubby is a good influence on me in that respect; he's a very pragmatic guy, and tends to tell me, "Sometimes bad things just happen" when I start to wig.

It's an interesting question for a person who wants to believe in God (or a purposeful existence, if you will).

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

And sometimes the silver lining is pretty darn thin. I am an optimist by nature, but I could not look my cousin in the face and chirp, "You lost your husband out of the blue in your middle forties so that you and your children would learn to value time spent together [/healthy habits/whatever other uplifting lesson you can come up with]."

I don't think that a belief in either God or a purposeful existence has to impose purpose on every element of existence. The fact that we live in an entropic universe doesn't mean that I can't determine a purpose of my own will. We can sometimes make good come from bad things, but it takes our effort; goodness doesn't just automatically flow from pain. If my cousin does decide to take the loss of her husband as a call to improve some aspect of her life, that will be something good for her to do, not something good that just happened to her.

I don't believe in a God who is limited to three dimensions, so the idea that God has a "plan" for my life in the sense that I have a plan for the rest of the evening is not one that makes sense to me. The basic and very literal premise of my religion is that God is love, and I can attempt to make more loving choices rather than less loving choices. But omniscience from infinite perspective is not the same thing as mapping out why there was a tornado, why the tomatoes flooded, why I chipped one of the soup plates. The meaning in those things is up to me to provide, if there is to be any.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

Well said. I'll continue to ponder this--it ties in with a lot of other things I've been thinking about lately.

To be totally tangential (and this is not to dismiss your comments--they certainly touched a chord with me, but I need to think about this more before discussing further), I've been trying to make myself read a book that ought to be 'good' for me, in the sense that I could possibly learn from it. But it's written in such turgid academese that there's just no joy in it.

So with respect to learning in the intellectual sense, I definitely think there has to be some fun or enjoyment involved in order for me to get the most out of it. If it doesn't engage the part of my mind that likes to play with stories, it just won't work.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

My shorthand for this is, "I do not write castor oil."

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

You've summed up more or less what I was going to say. I don't think bad things are anything in and of themselves, other than bad stuff (that you can't avoid, even though we desperately want to). The benefits I see people claiming are entirely due to the active hard work people do in response to the bad thing. So they can be motivation to learn, but they're not actually learning experiences.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I've never learned anything from stress or pain or grief except "Don't do that exact thing in that exact situation again." Since that exact situation can never again arise, this is the epitome of useless advice.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

When I really want to get my dad going, if I sprain my wrist or have a mediocre dinner or anything like that, I will finish the story with, "So that'll teach us for trying something new!" He knows I'm just yanking his chain, but it's still effective in drawing paternal squawks of protest.

My grandfather is very fond of protesting, when people say they'll never do something again, that you can't ever do the same thing twice. So I end up promising him not to do anything extremely similar. He also refuses to refer to car collisions as accidents, maintaining that, "When two bodies of that mass attempt to occupy the same space at the same time, what happens is no accident!"

[supergee.livejournal.com]

Is your grandfather named Heraclitus?

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I've never heard that "Richard" is American for "Heraclitus," but it might be, I suppose.

[merriehaskell.livejournal.com]

Monkeys will eat raw sweet potatoes with no butter or salt, so carrots might be a go.

[zalena.livejournal.com]

Pain is not the only teacher, nor is it the most effective one, but sometimes it is the only one that can reach us when we refuse to listen.

And, I agree, sometimes there's no reason for it.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

True, sometimes pain is the only teacher that can reach us. But sometimes joy is, too.

[writingortyping.livejournal.com]

Amen to that.

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

I've been wrestling with my mother over this. She insists that there must be some reason for her suffering. She thinks maybe it was to bring the family together and help us to better love and support each other. I can't deny that this is happening as a result of her suffering, but I can't get through to her either that God doesn't arrange for someone to break a dozen or so bones and lie in bed for three months just so Betsy will be friends with Joanie again.

You're right, we can learn something and grow every day, whether that day is a good or a bad one. One of our priests gave a homily a couple months back that is still ringing in my ears. "Suffering shatters a perfectly self-centered life." If you don't have anything bad happen to you, it's so tempting to behave as if the world revolves around you and you are *entitled* to the good things that happen. But if we know that good things don't happen to us because we deserve and are entitled to them, then I think the experience can be equally powerful as acceptance of a deep loss. (And not everyone experiences growth as a result of loss, either.)

I am so sorry for your recent losses. Mr Gabe sounds like he was really unique and special, and actively contributing to the good of society. And your poor cousin, struck down in the prime of life. That's just about the unfairest thing there is. *hugs*

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

It is unfair. It is hugely, cosmically unfair. But (and I think we're on the same page with this) recognizing it as unfair seems far, far better than trying to contort a universe into something retributive or stupidly didactic in order to make it seem fair. This is the good reason for adults to tell children that life is not always fair. (Unfortunately, it more often seemed to be an excuse for humans not to even attempt fairness.)

When my college town was hit by a tornado, someone close to me was convinced that everything happened for a reason. Groping around for the reason for the tornado, she finally hit upon the sentence, "Well -- lots of those houses probably needed to be remodeled anyway!" I'm still boggling over that.

[redbird]

Pain is not the only thing that teaches, and sometimes what it teaches is unhelpful or even false: pain and stress and grief can teach people to huddle in, to not risk love, or that the world is out to get them. It's not, any more than it's designed to benefit one specific person out of all of us.

If we're going to be monkeys with sticks, we can use them to pull the bananas down from the trees, we can use them to build shelves and bridges and fires, we can use them to stir the oatmeal.

[Putting that metaphor aside for the moment] What is potica?

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

It's an Eastern European rolled pastry. You cut off a slice like a slice of bread, and the cross-section is a spiral of pastry and filling.

The one I have now is filled with ground walnuts (my favorite potica filling) and raisins. We've also had ground poppyseed ones and once a finely chopped apricot thing. I got it at Finnish Bistro on Monday. It's not Finnish -- rather more southern than that -- but they make good ones anyway. Near holidays I will get them from Byerly's, our local and most excellent grocery store.

And yes, sometimes the lessons of pain are lies, or at least harmful.

[lthomas987.livejournal.com]

ah ha.. I should read further down. clearly before asking questions already answered.

[loup_noir]

Potica - yum! Your wisdom teeth sockets must be all healed up then? I will spare you my horror story re: teeth. Let's just say that I'm envious of your recovery.

You can get a lesson from anything, but the gentler teachers require more attention than the 2x4 between the eyes sort. The lessons I've learned from pain have been lasting ones, but they're the ones I rather resent at times. The ones that joy, love and sheer fun have given me took longer for me to note, and I enjoy those so much more. They're the ones I turn to these days when I'm down.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Mostly healed up. Tortilla chips are still a bad idea, but ground walnuts are fine, and meat went just fine today and yesterday, too.