(no subject)

[mrissa]

I've already been talking about this with one of you on e-mail, but I decided I needed to say it publicly:

You know how people are always talking about stress and pain and grief as learning experiences? They can be, sure, if you think about them and work at it. But you know what? I think joy and relaxation and just plain fun can be learning experiences, too. They can be cause for us to grow as people, too. They can teach us valuable things about the world, too. We are not just monkeys with sticks. We can be monkeys with carrots, too.

Hey, do monkeys eat carrots?

Umm, right. I think I'd better finish my potica before I make any more pronouncements.

Comments

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Pain, on the other hand . . . There ought to be a reason for pain--either we've done something to deserve it, or else we're going to be a better person when we resolve it/endure it.

That ascribes a good deal more motive to the universe (and/or to God, depending on who's proposing this notion) than I think is warranted. Why did my cousin die? Heart attack. Not my virtue, not my vice, not my need to learn; I am not the center of the universe. Not even of my loved ones' worlds. Why did my old teacher die? Blood clot. Again, not me. It's human to impose structure on the observed world, but I think we need to be extremely careful about remembering that that's what we're doing. Most of the "higher meaning" explanations I've heard for pain have fallen entirely flat when tested for proportionate response, and I think the answer is generally because we live in an entropic universe.

And unfortunately, I think some people do feel they need to justify the joyful moments. Sad but true.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this all afternoon (except for when I had to keep getting Entropic!Baby off the coffee table). My own tendency is to want to find some point to suffering (my own or others'), just because it seems even harsher to have a universe in which bad things happen without the victim getting any benefit out of it.

But you're right in that it's an arrogant thing to do, and imputes too much importance to myself or my view of how the world ought to operate. My hubby is a good influence on me in that respect; he's a very pragmatic guy, and tends to tell me, "Sometimes bad things just happen" when I start to wig.

It's an interesting question for a person who wants to believe in God (or a purposeful existence, if you will).

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

And sometimes the silver lining is pretty darn thin. I am an optimist by nature, but I could not look my cousin in the face and chirp, "You lost your husband out of the blue in your middle forties so that you and your children would learn to value time spent together [/healthy habits/whatever other uplifting lesson you can come up with]."

I don't think that a belief in either God or a purposeful existence has to impose purpose on every element of existence. The fact that we live in an entropic universe doesn't mean that I can't determine a purpose of my own will. We can sometimes make good come from bad things, but it takes our effort; goodness doesn't just automatically flow from pain. If my cousin does decide to take the loss of her husband as a call to improve some aspect of her life, that will be something good for her to do, not something good that just happened to her.

I don't believe in a God who is limited to three dimensions, so the idea that God has a "plan" for my life in the sense that I have a plan for the rest of the evening is not one that makes sense to me. The basic and very literal premise of my religion is that God is love, and I can attempt to make more loving choices rather than less loving choices. But omniscience from infinite perspective is not the same thing as mapping out why there was a tornado, why the tomatoes flooded, why I chipped one of the soup plates. The meaning in those things is up to me to provide, if there is to be any.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

Well said. I'll continue to ponder this--it ties in with a lot of other things I've been thinking about lately.

To be totally tangential (and this is not to dismiss your comments--they certainly touched a chord with me, but I need to think about this more before discussing further), I've been trying to make myself read a book that ought to be 'good' for me, in the sense that I could possibly learn from it. But it's written in such turgid academese that there's just no joy in it.

So with respect to learning in the intellectual sense, I definitely think there has to be some fun or enjoyment involved in order for me to get the most out of it. If it doesn't engage the part of my mind that likes to play with stories, it just won't work.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

My shorthand for this is, "I do not write castor oil."

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

You've summed up more or less what I was going to say. I don't think bad things are anything in and of themselves, other than bad stuff (that you can't avoid, even though we desperately want to). The benefits I see people claiming are entirely due to the active hard work people do in response to the bad thing. So they can be motivation to learn, but they're not actually learning experiences.