An ass out of you and umption

[mrissa]

Crowded Culver's in the middle of Wisconsin. Table of four guys in their mid-twenties dressed in hunting winter camo and orange jackets, eating burgers and cheese curds and frozen custard. As I stood there propped against a wall waiting for a table to open up, it became clear what they were discussing:

"Like Mirror Dance? I liked that one, with the crazy clone brother."
"No, not Mirror Door, Mirador. It's a place. They're all places, all the titles. Fake word places."
"I just read Melusine."
"Well, you gotta borrow the others. There's this actress...."

I did not jump in to tell them that truepenny had put trains in the last volume, but oh, was I tempted.

Comments

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

OMG that's AWESOME. I'm going to be wandering around grinning like an idiot for the rest of the day.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

Very cool! I rarely encounter SF readers in the wild (i.e. people I didn't already know), and it's always fascinating when I do.

[p-j-cleary.livejournal.com]

I wonder if their book club had just reached the "M"s?

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

I actually had to think several seconds to figure this out. The concept of a book club going alphabetically by title is freaking weird.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Psst. My last name also begins with M.

[p-j-cleary.livejournal.com]

Heh, it was just the titles all beginning with "M" that got me, but a sub-sort of titles, then authors...hmm. Sort of an "OCD Book of the Month Club."

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

Yes (though, thanks to LJ, I have to dig to come up with that sometimes). But they were discussing at least THREE books, all of whose titles started with M, by two authors, only one of whom has a last name starting with M. So it was the titles that it seemed to me it must be referring to -- explaining all the books in the conversation.

[ckd]

It's possible they sorted LMB under "McMaster".

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

Gack. Yes, I suppose that's possible; in the general sort of "any kind of screw-up is possible" sense :-).

[sleary.livejournal.com]

My local used bookshop does. Drives me nutty.

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this moment of awesomeness. :)

[diatryma.livejournal.com]

Hee.

[athenais.livejournal.com]

This makes my day for all kinds of reasons.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

I love this. But why didn't you jump in?

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Hmm, now I'm trying to figure out whether this is a personal or a regional/subcultural difference--further data points welcome.

For me, people carrying on conversations while seated at tables in a restaurant (even a casual or fast-food restaurant) are presumed to be having a private conversation, particularly if they are not speaking unduly loudly. The only reason I was able to hear them at all was because I was propped on the wall nearby waiting for a table--under ordinary circumstances they could expect that they were talking to each other and not to other people. So it would have struck me as an invasion of their personal space to jump in.

If the same conversation had taken place in line to buy their burgers, I wouldn't have had the same qualms, but I still might not have jumped in, because the Great Northern Geek is sometimes easily spooked, particularly in its male form. But that's a question of, "Will this be a pleasant interaction for all parties?", which is something different from, "Will this get in their space unnecessarily?".

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Nope, that's my approach, too. The table vs line thing.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

I might not enter a conversation at a table, though I would be sorely tempted. I think I would try to make eye contact first. On another hand, I'm of an age and demeanor that no one would ever mistake for coming on to said gentlemen, and I might feel differently if I wasn't.

In a line, I almost certainly would.

I think some of it is regional/cultural and some is individual. I'm going to ask my local African-American who lived in the Twin Cities for a long time, because the African-American culture is the most conversation-starting-with-strangers culture that I know and the midwest seems to be the least.

[inizitu.livejournal.com]

"the African-American culture is the most conversation-starting-with-strangers culture that I know and the midwest seems to be the least."


This? Sort of makes me inexplicably happy. Best Cultural Generalization Ever. =D I want my culture to be associated with chatting pleasantly with strangers. =D

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it makes you happy. It's certainly a Cultural Generalization (TM), and I'm aware of that. But I see it all the time.

[inizitu.livejournal.com]

I do, too, I see the same stuff. Context: In the last few days, esp., I've been subjected to all sorts of really icky generalizations about folks. Hence, seeing something like "conversation-starting-with-strangers" was a pleasant sort of relief, both in construction and sentiment.

It's human nature to generalize and put things in boxes, right? It's a nice change when the boxes have a happy face on them.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

That is indeed a fine thing to be associated with!

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yah, I did think of being of an age and demeanor that one might well mistake for coming on to said gentlemen. Also, there is a certain confidence posture I physically cannot do with the vertigo, and it was part of my repertoire for dealing that kind of misunderstanding quickly and painlessly, so I'm less likely to risk it.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

Both of those things make huge sense to me.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

I know I've commented on books people were reading at a table; but it seems to be important that the book is there. It's easy to point to to indicate what I'm commenting on. If I'd been standing around where I could hear them, I'd find myself going to lengths to avoid showing that I'd heard them, I think.

Certainly in line I'll speak to anybody that looks interesting.

The person who stands out in my head as starting conversations with random strangers 10x more than is locally appropriate is a white guy from Louisiana. I've never seen him get a bad response from anybody on that, either.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Going to lengths to avoid showing that I'd heard them: yes, exactly.

[atdt1991.livejournal.com]

I think I would have come to the conclusion that all parties -would- benefit positively from the interaction, and so I would have jumped in.

I think people generally like it when you share their cultural references, even if you're a stranger. Also, and this is an assumption here, you are a girl and they are boys, and so they may be inherently pleased that you are into what they're into.

Also also, having someone pipe up with "Oh, they said on their blog the other day blah blah" is usually cool. :) Of course, maybe I shouldn't talk, being extremely comfortable with the blogging world.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Also, and this is an assumption here, you are a girl and they are boys, and so they may be inherently pleased that you are into what they're into.

Yes.

Do you see how that's not always something that would be worth their enjoyment to me? Sometimes I am pleased to be the Designated Woman Geek In The Vicinity, the one-woman walking force of gender integration, sometimes (depending on their tastes) even The Cute One They Didn't Believe Existed.

But particularly with my mobility limited in ways that aren't obvious to the casual observer with the vertigo, that's not something I always want to open the door to.

And also there are lots of boys (I use the term advisedly: there are fewer men in this category, and it's hard to tell from casual observation of a group of 20somethings in a Culver's whether they're boys or men) who are scared to death by women who are knowledgeable in their fields of knowledge, and who are rude and unpleasant by way of not knowing what else to be.

[joeboo-k.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly.

Tables = no, private conversation.
Line = maybe, but socially acceptable.

But then I'm inherently not-an-approacher, even at approaching-type-places like cons, so I might not necessarily have the squared away viewpoint here.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I don't approach as much as I could at cons, either. Ingrained cultural stuff. I suspect that I am fast approaching the point--if I'm not past it already--where I know enough people that not approaching new people will make me "stuck-up" and "cliquey." Sigh.

[joeboo-k.livejournal.com]

I think there can easily be a perception, not necessarily of you specifically, that approaching someone can seem like intruding into a closed social circle. That all these people know each other and that the new person can feel like an interloper.

But, then, I think I'm also just socially wired to not intrude. Even granting a New York childhood before moving to Minnesota before high school.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

And while it's natural for a new person to feel like an interloper, I think that too many people then project that onto others: "I don't feel quite comfortable here" becomes "these people are making me uncomfortable" even if there isn't a great deal that the said people are doing or could be doing differently.

I had to learn to intrude a bit at cons, but mostly I just got to know enough people that I feel a great deal less like I'm intruding. If I was at a con where I knew nobody, I would still have a hard time poking my nose into conversations. I'd probably do it anyway, but it would be hard.

[songwind.livejournal.com]

I'm frequently surprised by the Venn intersection of Geek and Hunter up here. Where I went to high school and college it was much more segregated. I suspect it has to do with the # of dads who forced their geeky/unusual sons to go hunting to "prove he ain't no sissy" or whathaveyou.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I don't know, maybe. My closest friend who hunts has a much less fraught relationship with his dad than the one you postulate. They're from up north, and hunting is just a normal thing people do--and a lot of people in the Cities moved down from up north this generation or the one before it. So for my friend there isn't any question of proving anything, there's a question of spending time with his dad and acquiring venison, both of which he favors.

[redbird]

Right.

Despite what some people would like us to think, hunting doesn't have to be a matter of machismo, or proving toughness (though, as a wimp, if someone wanted to take me hunting, I would insist on warmer weather, because otherwise neither of us would enjoy it).

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

I can't even tell which way you're arguing that -- geeks up here AREN'T forced to hunt because the dads are more sane, so more of them do it because they like it? Or more are forced, and many find that they like it and keep it up anyway? No experience personally, my father was a rather non-geeky math professor who did not hunt.

[songwind.livejournal.com]

Meaning a lot of my geek friends down South that had hunted were forced to, and hated is as a reaction.

[magentamn.livejournal.com]

Some of the people I know or knew who hunt do it/did it for FOOD. A deer is a fair amount of meat.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

That is the case for many hunters I know also.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

I don't believe I know any people who hunt because it's a cheaper way to get protein in their diet. But the ones I know like to eat venison, duck, pheasant, or whatever they're hunting. So that's "for food" but not "important part of their economy".

[saoba.livejournal.com]

Once upon a time I was on a Greyhound bus in the Deep South. During my three day trip I had an encounter I've always cherished.

Scene: a bus terminal. I was re-reading Little Women. A rangy and overall-clad elderly man leaned over and said in a confiding way 'I cried harder over Beth than I ever did over Old Yeller.' We passed a pleasant half hour discussing how he'd read Alcott to his daughters and which books he'd liked best before he made his connection to Birmingham.

He was on his way to pick up parts to repair a thresher, as I recall.

[mlt23.livejournal.com]

That makes my day. So awesome and wonderfully unexpected.

When I was younger and hadn't figured out internet fandom yet, I used to long for that to happen so that I could join in. I was so shy, I probably wouldn't have, no matter what the situation, but it still would have been awesome.

[reveritas.livejournal.com]

(Truepenny is Lois McMaster Bujold [sp?]) Surely I'm reading this wrong.

I get a little frisson every time I see someone reading the Examiner. :D

[reveritas.livejournal.com]

Er, the home and garden section, that is -- not the whole Examiner -- just the bits I edit.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

No, truepenny is Sarah Monette and also Katharine Addison. She wrote Mirador; Lois wrote Mirror Dance and is, so far as I know, not on lj.