I just assumed

[mrissa]

We went to the new Italian place near us, which is in the same location as two previous Italian places but is both cheaper and better. timprov and I had gone once before, when markgritter was out of town, and discovered that they (Andiamo in Eagan) have Happy Hour from 3-6 and 9-11 each night, wherein appetizers and pizzas are half-price, and we had the loveliest pear gorgonzola pizza with prosciutto and walnuts and raspberry honey. It was, of course, not pizza, but it was really quite fine flat bread food.

Here's the thing, though: they left "onions" off the description of that pizza in the menu, and we had to send it back to get it without onions, because just picking them off is not really the thing when you didn't want the ensemble to taste like onions at all.

This time, I ordered a chicken dish. And this time the thing they didn't mention on the menu was capers. Luckily I both like capers and find them appropriate to this chicken dish, so no biggie--but timprov had been thinking of ordering it, and he does not like capers. And again: you can't just pick out the capers in something that's made with capers and have it taste the same. They're very flavorful. They flavor their surroundings right away.

Here is my question. Which ingredients, for you, seem not worth mentioning on a menu? I can see the argument for onions, even though I deplore it: onions are very, very commonly used. In fact, when we sent it back to ask for it to be remade without onions (yes, we tipped the waiter substantially), the waiter said, "I think I didn't hear you say you wanted it without onions." I said, "I didn't. Because the menu doesn't say it has them." And he looked very confused, and I suspect this is because he didn't consider them notable or worthy of mention on the menu--it was just reasonable that there would be onions in this dish.

So what are your limits there? Which ingredients do you consider major in what things--what goes on a pizza by default, for example?

I assume that those of you with severe food allergies would ask to make absolutely sure, but we don't have severe food allergies, we just didn't want onions on this particular item.

Comments

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

which chicken dish? we find ourselves in eagan at dinner time occasionally, and i love capers to the extent that sometimes i eat them straight.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Chicken Andiamo. There's also a Lemon Chicken with capers on the menu, but I haven't tried that.

[ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com]

I feel that anything that's assembled to order should have all its default components clearly listed-- pizzas, sandwiches, many salads, anything where it's that trivial to omit an ingredient by request.

[carbonel]

I'd expect a pizza to have cheese and tomato sauce. Anything else should be mentioned. I like onions in my pizza, but I still expect them to be in the description. On the other hand, if I were ordering, say, chicken cacciatore, I wouldn't feel a need to have onions mentioned.

Specifically on the subject of capers, I'm actually okay picking then out (other than the nuisance value), because it's the texture of capers I don't like. The flavor is okay. Come to think of it, with almost all the foods I'm fussy about, it's texture rather than flavor that's the problem.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that's interesting: so would you just feel that "Chicken cacciatore" could be listed without listing the ingredients, because it's a known thing? Or would you want them to list the ingredients only if they prepared it particularly differently?

[carbonel]

I think it's primarily because chicken cacciatore is an integral thing, which includes it being a known thing.

Whereas (standard) pizza is a template upon which things are added. (I wanted to say "palimpsest," which gave rise to some interesting but not very edible imagery.)

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

I dunno, water, sugar, salt, and specific herbs and spices I would generally not expect to have mentioned. Oregano in pizza or pasta sauce, for instance, I would expect to be present without mention. Stuff that I wish menus would always mention, but quite often don't, are mushrooms and olives and chick peas in salads, and capers in more-or-less anything. I particularly would prefer to know in advance if my bagel-and-lox sandwich automatically comes with capers, but I have learned to just check.

Hardly anyone mentions the obligatory carrots and red cabbage in their house green salad, but by golly they are always there.

[alecaustin.livejournal.com]

So just tonight, at the Japanese place I went to because Saul's Deli was closed for Passover, I told the waitress "No onions" for my Chicken Donburi (because Donburi bowls are always described as Meat + Rice, and are always always always slathered in onions).

There were no onions in it when it showed up! But apparently because the restaurant was A) run by the sort of Chinese people who cater to their local market, and B) in Berkeley, it had all kinds of other vegetables mixed in with the egg and meat! And along with the carrots and cabbage and so on were bean sprouts, which I then proceeded to make a mound of on my napkin.

I would really have liked it if the menu had mentioned all the vegetables involved. Or any of them, even.

[asciikitty.livejournal.com]

I dated someone with a severe onion allergy once - now I assume that they will be in or on any given food item. I quite enjoy onions, but.

[madmanatw.livejournal.com]

I hate onions... I accept that a little bit of onion powder and such will be in, well, damn near everything, and that's ok. But I can't eat tuna salad at most delis because it's full of yum and onions.

I would expect onions to be mentioned on a pizza. Red sauce and moz cheese are the only things I would default to assuming.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I am happy to have every ingredient left off the menu description -- I've ordered based solely on a quote like "Chef's 7 Course Tasting Menu" -- but I understand that I'm far to one side of this discussion.

B

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

There are restaurants in which we have had a habit of walking in, sitting down, and saying, "Feed us." And just eating whatever the chef cared to put in front of us. And I agree that if you're not prepared to take whatever comes in that circumstance, you should say something like, "My sister-in-law here does not enjoy shellfish. Can you make us one of your dinners without shellfish?", but should not go, "Wait! Onions? Broccoli? I didn't know this would be here!" Because of course you didn't; you didn't know any of what would be there.

It's a little different for me when I'm choosing a menu item that has a long listing of ingredients. Possibly for you it doesn't feel any different; that's part of what I'm asking.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

There's a difference between food restrictions and menu descriptions. I think people with serious rules need to alert the kitchen. Here I'm thinking of vegetarians and people with wheat allergies. Not liking capers is far too down in the noise, although you'd think that restaurants would put that sort of thing on their menu -- from experience, if nothing else.

I regularly choose menu items based on ingredients, but it is never the case that there's a surprise ingredient that would have made me not order if it I had only known. Even the time I ordered veal kidneys, and the time I ordered duck tongues -- they were listed right on the menu.

I have a sister who treats a restaurant menu as an ingredients list. She has no conception of how much the average restaurant buys things pre-prepared.

B

[moiread]

Unfortunately, for some of us, the list of restrictions is long and confusing, like mine: "No fungi or anything fermented; no dairy; no fish OR seafood; whole grain only unless it's got whole seeds; nothing with a tough texture or a peel or seeds; only a little bit of nightshades; lean meat only; very little salt..." and on and on. Alerting the kitchen makes life difficult for everybody and often just plain doesn't work. Most servers seriously do not want or need that much information, so what I need is a menu that does list everything, or nearly so.

I can make do with finding out a particular dish is very salty, at which point I can skimp on it and eat more of something else. I can even make do with surprise mushrooms, if it's the kind of thing where I can pick them out without too much trouble. I can't make do with surprise fermented sauce or fish sauce or surprise shrimp, however, and discovering that my meal consists entirely of cheese and cream sauce when the menu implied it was mostly other stuff with the addition of cheese (and no mention of cream sauce anywhere) will just piss me off.

Basically, I feel like managing my food shit is complicated enough as it is, and would just like to be able to quietly make the best choices for my needs without having to make a big deal out of it or send things back repeatedly (or have to order a whole second meal because it turns out the first one was full of surprises to such a degree that sending it back wouldn't do any good). I just want it to be as easy and stress-free as it can be, and that means restaurants taking a bit of time to be clear on their menus so it saves everybody (including them) a bunch of trouble in the long run.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Related:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/nyregion/05puritans.html

http://www.opinionatedaboutdining.com/OADblog.php?ID=11494

I'm in the middle on this one. I think it's perfectly reasonable for high end chefs to say "this is how it comes, take it or leave it." I also think it's perfectly reasonable for diners to ask for reasonable accommodations.

B

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yah, I can easily see saying, "This is how we prepare this, and it will not be the same dish without it," but some of the stuff that's being discussed in that article looks to me like people being just a teensy bit full of themselves. On either side.

One of the things about high-end chefs--I know you already know this, but some people on lj don't have as much experience--is that they will often give you something really gorgeous if you give them reasonable time and ask them to accommodate a particular diner. If I was going to take jonsinger or aamcnamara (to take my two canonical Friends With Bad Allergies Who Like Good Food) to a really nice restaurant, I would call in advance and say, "Here are the allergies/dietary limitations; what can you make for them?" I wouldn't expect that to work beautifully every time at a neighborhood hole-in-the-wall or a medium-level restaurant, but if you're going somewhere high-end, the chef can almost always make accommodations like that, and it often turns out better than trying to modify one of the pre-existing dishes. And if they just say, "Well, we don't do stuff like that," then you know what kind of restaurant you're dealing with and can take people somewhere that can actually feed them.

[retrobabble.livejournal.com]

Powdered sugar on waffles. Not something I grew up with and I don't like it. It's not always mentioned, either and I forget.

[athenais.livejournal.com]

Not worth mentioning: most vegetables. I'd be displeased if someone didn't mention capers, though. Or anchovies.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I don't tend to assume that herbs will be mentioned, EXCEPT I hate cilantro and so I want to know if I have to ask for it to be kept far far away.

Yes, that's hypocritical. I admit it.

[finnyb.livejournal.com]

I'm the same on this one. I can't stand the taste or smell of the stuff, at all!

[sageautumn.livejournal.com]

Me too!

I ask about it pretty much anywhere it might be an option... and some places/dishes where it should obviously NOT be an option, judging from the looks I get. lol

[sam-t.livejournal.com]

I would expect there to be a high probability of onions (perhaps chopped very finely/puréed) in the tomato sauce on a pizza. I would not expect there to be unannounced strips of onion on any given pizza.

[cathshaffer.livejournal.com]

I think both onions and capers should be mentioned on the menu. Basically anything chunky enough to be plainly visible should not be a surprise. Also, anything with a strong flavor. No one should be surprised by the flavor of garlic, or wine, or chocolate, etc. Lastly, things that are commonly allergenic, like dairy products, seafood, and peanuts should be mentioned unless it's, like, totally obvious that the food contains them. For example, there's probably no need to mention that a pizza has cheese, unless it's a fancy cheese like buffalo mozzarella and therefore a selling point.

In short, I agree the restaurant is not doing a great job with their menu, but cheap and good often comes with some other compromises. :-)

[cathshaffer.livejournal.com]

Oh, one exception to the allergy thing. I don't think, in western countries, that one needs to mention the use of wheat, since people allergic to wheat must needs assume it is in everything. Instead, any wheat or gluten free menu items should be advertised as such, and then scrupulously prepared as promised.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yah, exactly: we're likely to go back. They're not only cheap and good, but five minutes from our house? We will figure out what's on the menu by trial and error at that rate. Especially since they were so good about remaking the pizza without onions the first time, so if we run across something else that is unexpected and unwanted, we know they'll be reasonable about it.

[sageautumn.livejournal.com]

Hrm. I think anything that is not automatic default should be mentioned--IF there is a listing of ingredients. If there is no listing, then it is on you to ask (or deal with it since you didn't ask).

Automatic default to me means... without X, it would not be Y to >90% of the population. Ie (normal) Pizza... bread, tomato sauce, moz cheese... everything else should be listed.

I think, to me, in the situation above... it's not so much that it simply wasn't listed--it's that it wasn't listed when other things WERE.

[wshaffer.livejournal.com]

I'd generally expect strongly-flavored ingredients that many people don't like to be mentioned on the menu: capers, olives, anchovies, stuff like that. (Although it depends a bit on the type of cuisine, and what its defaults are. I don't necessarily expect a Greek restaurant to list every stray kalamata olive that might turn up, but if they're a significant component of the dish, I'd still expect to see them listed on the menu.)

I wouldn't expect onions to be mentioned if they were included as part of a sauce, but if we're talking about sauteed or caramelized onions used as a topping in their own right, I'd expect them to be mentioned.

The way the menu is written is also important. If a menu lists "Pear and gorgonzola pizza", then I'm going to be fairly certain that that's not a complete lists of ingredients, and I'm more likely to ask, "So, what else is on the pizza?" if I have any concerns. If a menu lists, "Pear and gorgonzola pizza with prosciutto, walnuts, and raspberry honey," I might well think that that's a complete list.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

I'm amused that so far nobody has mentioned crust as something that normally comes with a pizza. Apparently it's so part of the default it's not worth mentioning :-) . (Perhaps the phrase "goes on a pizza" got people thinking about layers above the crust?)

Pizza sauce will normally contain onions (minced fine).

Extra onions in the topping isn't a default -- in particular, it's an item on the normal list of things you can put on a pizza.

Part of the trouble with flat bread food masquerading as pizza is that these expectations aren't as clearly established, so people don't know what to do or what to expect accurately.

Capers and anchovies both deserve a warning; they're both so concentratedly salty that a lot of people don't like them.

Mayo is often used without notice (not on pizza; but on sandwiches, and sushi). (Huh; given the congruent origin stories for sandwiches and sushi, that's a weird connection.) Since I really really hate mayo, this causes me a fair amount of trouble. (Also used on main courses in trendy places too much, but often under a code-name such as "aioli" or "hollandaise".)

There's also the reverse violation of expectations -- a pizza that doesn't have a crust, red sauce, and cheese will leave most people surprised and unhappy in the absence of clear prior notice.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

A downtown restaurant serves a wonderful hamburger. On the menu, it is described, "With Everything. No temps or substitutions ever."

Which means that the kitchen isn't interested in your opinion of a perfect hamburger. They want to share their vision with you of the ideal and most delicious hamburger possible. Are they right? Sure they are. Are you right to say "But I don't like...onions/mayo/bacon"? Sure you are. But they won't change what they put on that burger for you. (They will leave things off on request.)

I have a very hard time imagining myself saying "I usually eat onions and in fact like them, I just don't want them on this dish at this time." I always trust the people who create the menu.

Speaking as a restaurant professional, I'd be concerned about any return trips you make to this restaurant. Depending on how they staff, the front of the house or the back will possibly recognize you the next time you return. The more often you make requests like this, the more memorable and the more work you are. Restaurant employees don't want to deal with extra work. They already have plenty to do. YMMV, but I never want to be the people of whom the staff says, "Oh. It's *them* again."

K.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a restaurant professional, I'd be concerned about any return trips you make to this restaurant.

How do you mean, concerned? Or rather, what are you concerned about, specifically?

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I'd be concerned about being hated, and whatever behaviors might result from that. I'd have to observe this restaurant and this staff to give you a better answer.

K.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Well, since I would have found the pizza inedible with onions (I dislike onions and have had ongoing nausea issues for the last three years), I'll just have to hope that tipping large amounts on my part and professionalism on their part cover whatever behaviors are of concern.

[ashnistrike.livejournal.com]

Taking an example from a random meal last week... If you explicitly mark something as vegetarian, you ought to mention if in fact it's fried in the same oil with shrimp.

[callunav.livejournal.com]

I've learned to just accept it when I order something and it comes with cilantro, and make a mental note to try to remember to ask for it to be left out the next time. Though sometimes I still don't bother because it's so very, very confusing for a lot of the staff in a lot of hole-in-the-wall Vietnamese restaurants, which I like to eat at and of which there are many in the Boston area.

I've also gotten used to the fact that people who cook with grills are so unused to dealing with customers that don't eat meat that they quite often don't understand what they're being asked if I try to explain that, yes, I would like a grilled cheese sandwich, but that I would like it not cooked right where a hamburger was a minute ago. I /do/ ask, but I get some damn funny looks. There was one place I ate regularly for a year where the short-order cook thought it was so funny that every time he saw me, he said, "Grilled cheese, no hamburger," like it was the most eccentric thing he'd encountered in years. And I would nod and smile amiably.

I've also learned that most people who serve soup don't understand that there may be meat broth in a "vegetable" soup which doesn't have chunks of meat in it, and that if I ask them, they'll just get more and more flustered and irritable with me for not understanding that it's a vegetable soup, with no meat in it. I just ask them if they could ask the person who made it if there's any chicken or beef stock. If that doesn't work, I just order something else.

Most things, I have learned to ask about. On the other hand, if I do ask, or I specify when I make my order, I get extremely cranky to get something contradictory. Likewise any fairly standard dish that someone just happened to decide /their/ version of should have meat, or be very spicy, or do anything else that is boundary-crossing like that. Like, if I order oshitashi, or egg salad, I should not have to specify that I want it vegetarian.

I also think it's not just items but quantities. I wouldn't be surprised to order something that had a lot of ingredients, and discover that it had been sauteed with a bit of onion, but if it's going to be slathered in them, I want to be told. And pizza defaults to cheese, and a seasoned tomato sauce. I don't expect to know all the seasonings in the sauce, but I expect to be told about any toppings.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I had a friend who was in a smallish town visiting relatives and asked if the baked potato soup was vegetarian. She asked, like, seven different ways. They assured her that it was not made with any kind of meat broth, did not contain chunks of meat in the body of the soup, etc. Brilliant. So she ordered the baked potato soup. And it came...garnished with bacon.

Which grew, no doubt, upon the bacon tree.

We, too, have many Vietnamese restaurants, and yes, I can see how no-cilantro might get the sort of reaction that my friend who has an onion allergy got in an Afghani restaurant. (The waiter looked at her with this horrified and pitying look, as though she had said, "Hello, I am allergic to food.")

I was very surprised to get dan dan mein with meat in, but since I do eat meat, it was a matter of, "Oh, huh, is that how they make it here," rather than, "Ack!" I just...had never had dan dan mein with meat before.

[hbevert.livejournal.com]

Something I don't think is mentioned every time in sauces and soups (and should be) is whether they are made with wine. I usually love wine sauces, and I'd like to know when I have the option of having one. I also know folks who really hate the way that any alcohol makes their food taste who'd like to have the heads-up.

Gotta agree with the above posters re: really salty stuff that should be listed. It changes the taste immensely to have them or to leave them out.

I work in a cafe that gladly caters to lots of special diet needs, but we can't do it well if we don't know about that need until the person is standing at the counter saying that whatever it is has something in it they don't like/can't eat. Really restricted or really picky people are best advised to call ahead.

Gluten-free is a real tough one to guarantee. At my cafe, we make gluten-free items, but we make them in a kitchen that also does gluten-filled baking and cooking. We wash all the utensils after every use, we wash our hands before starting each dish, and we use a clean cutting board/countertop each time, but if there is a horrible allergy to gluten, that patron needs a dedicated gluten-free facility, none of which exist in our entire city. Every place that uses regular wheat flour has it floating around in the air like dust.

[hypatia-j.livejournal.com]

Unexpected onion story... One of the many days I was helping my mother move into her current apartment we attempted to have pizza for lunch (it was 2pm, I hadn't eaten and was already at the end of my rope.)

Mom is highly sensitive to onions and they will make her sick for hours. So she explained to the teen taking orders that onions were a problem and please tell her if there was any in the sauce etc. "No, no onions" was the reply.

She ordered a single serving sausage pizza. When it arrived, not only were there visible bits of onion in the sauce, there were also entire slices on the pizza.

When we complained, the response was disbelief from the server "Sausage pizza always comes with onions!". Gah.

[moiread]

Apart from my comment to minnehaha above, I would like very much if my brother's favourite sushi place would warn diners in advance, through the menu, if they do something really unexpected with a dish. Like, say, doing all of their teriyaki dishes with American barbeque sauce for the tare instead of soy-based sauce. And not just a bit of mild barbeque sauce, either. We are talking, like, knock-your-socks-off strong and slathered in it. And the weird thing is that this isn't a fushion place; it's an otherwise very traiditional menu. They just... really seem to like barbeque sauce. Or something. I don't even know. It made me pretty mad, not just because I felt the result was practically inedible to begin with, but they don't have a lot of non-fish/-seafood options -- they didn't even have any straight-up kappa maki, which I can almost always rely on as my go-to thing when out for sushi -- and I thought I'd found the one thing I could eat, so I didn't have to have the awkwardness of not eating anything at all or having to make everybody relocate to cater to my needs, only it wasn't described well and turned out to be weird and gross. :(

[kitryan.livejournal.com]

I feel that if something lists many of the ingredients in a dish, it should not randomly omit a visible or strongly flavored one. If it is a brief description, then one knows to ask for details- I also detest mushrooms and feel that it is a personal and taxonomic travesty that a restaurant will consider them included in 'assorted vegetables'. For my own peace and that of my co-diners I now ask about mushrooms in virtually every dish- which gives me some odd looks from servers. My dad has once or twice said that I'm allergic, (I'm not and we don't have any serious allergies in the family, so he's not familiar with what that's really like), and while I know he thought he was just simplifying things, I corrected that right away, before the poor server was forced to have the kitchen create some sort of mushroom clean room. Then my sister and I ( she works in restaurants) explained the issues involved and how it's a very bad thing to claim nonexistent allergies. He doesn't do that anymore. (sorry, tangent)

[vcmw]

Ham. We went to Spain. There appear to have been cultural differences involved. I'm not vegetarian but don't eat a ton of meat, and I saw "peas" on the menu. I like peas, so I ordered them. They were something like 25% ham by volume. Apparently this was perfectly obvious to them.

I was depressed. So if I have to nominate one thing I want to be told about, it's, "do these vegetables contain large quantities of meat."

Relatedly, I get that split pea soup by default has ham, but I prefer to be told, since I like split pea soup only when it's vegetarian.

No Likey

[stuart spafford (from livejournal.com)]

Cilantro. I personally like cilantro. Others feel it tastes like soap. My ex-mother-in-law hated it. I would laugh hysterically when it was served to her in almost everything she ordered. It didn't matter if it was Mexican or a salad, cilantro would show up just about everywhere.